# Where is the proof of Bin Laden's death? Seriously? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510 "2011-05-02T20:29:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/61 "2011-05-03T03:37:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … Would have been more difficult if they had kept the body for examination. We are given that they buried the body at sea, after appropriate religious ritual, **in sensitivity to Muslim customs about death and burial**. And the only reason I might not believe that is that it is so incredibly smart, I find it hard to accept it was done. – bolding mine. Might be smart, but it isn’t necessarily true: [**Burial at sea – Islam**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_at_sea#Islam) > [@](#): > > **The sacred texts of Islam prefer burial on land** , “so deep that its smell does not come out and the beasts of prey do not dig it out”. However, **if a person dies at sea and it is not possible to bring the body back to land before decay, burial at sea is allowed**. A weight is tied to the feet of the body, and the body is lowered into the water. This would preferably occur in an area where the remains are not immediately eaten by scavengers. Also, if an enemy may dig up the grave to mutilate the body, it is also allowed to bury the deceased at sea to avoid mutilation.[3] > > The most notable Muslim, by far, to be buried at sea is terrorist leader Osama bin Laden, whose burial in an unmarked grave in the Arabian Sea by the United States after his death has sparked some controversy. **There is a view that the U.S. dropped bin Laden at sea so that a land grave wouldn’t serve as a cenotaph for his followers**. – bolding mine. Smart it remains. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/62 "2011-05-03T03:48:34Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > As to guards: the more guards you have, the more people have to know where you are. Not to mention the increased amounts of food you have to bring in, the larger number of comings and goings that might attract interest… Given that if ObL’s cover was blown, the Americans would bring in enough troops to outnumber the guards, no matter how many guards he had, it makes sense to minimize the number of people in the compound. > > The news reports say it was a “mechanical failure”. Frankly, I think that either the pilot landed badly (understandable, given the total darkness) or the helicopter came under fire or both, and it was damaged enough that the SEALs decided to call in their backup helicopter rather than fly it out. You know what your problem is Apple? I’ll tell you what your problem is. You confuse people with the facts, that’s what your problem is. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/63 "2011-05-03T03:55:07Z")
The whole op lasted 40 minutes - from wheels down to wheels up - not the shootout. The only reference to a shootout appears to be at the end when bin Laden himself pulled a gun. Forty minutes isn’t much time to have a proper shootout. Remember that that 40 minutes also has to include them searching the place afterwards and carrying bin Laden’s body out to the helicopter ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/64 "2011-05-03T03:58:26Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And has been pointed out in several other threads: > > You can lie about this and get the President all the PR he wants. Until Bin Laden goes on TV holding a copy of the New York Times printed a month after he was “killed.” The United States is the laughing stock of the world, and Obama doesn’t even get nominated to run for re-election. > > No upside for making this up. I think you should re-read my post, because that’s exactly the point I’m making. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/65 "2011-05-03T04:00:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Might be smart, but it isn’t necessarily true: In this case there were two additional practical concerns: there was the memorial thing, and the fact that if he’d been buried on land, he would have been in someone’s country. What country would have wanted bin Laden’s body? So it seems to me that they did the best they could with those stipulations. It would have been terrible if this turned into a sort of Abu Ghraib redux. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > The only reference to a shootout appears to be at the end when bin Laden himself pulled a gun. Four other people were shot to death. This is pretty clear in most of the reporting. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/66 "2011-05-03T04:04:37Z")
IIRC one was actually his son, and another was a woman (one of his wives? His son’s wives?) killed when someone used her as a human shield. The others were security guards, again IIRC. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/67 "2011-05-03T04:10:31Z")
They’ve been described as couriers, so they were apparently more than just bodyguards. It’s not clear who used the woman as a human shield. The Washington Post says flat-out that it was bin Laden, since the dead woman was one of his wives. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/68 "2011-05-03T04:16:23Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > It’s a bit odd how he didn’t seem to have any guards. I always thought he’d be surrounded by a heavily armed loyal bodyguard but there’s been no mention of a shootout. The SEALs went in, found a couple of wives in a room on the first floor, proceeded to the second floor where they found bin Laden with his wife. No mention of any armed guards apart from the couple of couriers. > > And why did the helicopter crash? Do they have a habit of stalling? I would have thought a helicopter stalling would be quite a rare thing. The chances of it stalling at just that moment in the middle of a crucial anti-terrorist op seems like a big coincidence. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > Maybe, but you’d have thought that would have been emphasised more in the news if it had happened to any great degree. > > You would think, bin Laden, a guy like that would have lookouts posted around the compound and also an escape route in case there’s a drama. I’m surprised he didn’t have a tunnel leading out of the compound or at least some means of exit. That’s the first rule of special forces - always make sure you’ve got an exit. > > Sitting in a compound with no lookouts, no guards and no escape route seems a bit negligent to me, as far as evil masterminds go. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > The whole op lasted 40 minutes - from wheels down to wheels up - not the shootout. The only reference to a shootout appears to be at the end when bin Laden himself pulled a gun. Forty minutes isn’t much time to have a proper shootout. Remember that that 40 minutes also has to include them searching the place afterwards and carrying bin Laden’s body out to the helicopter Again, I don’t know what news stories you’re reading here. [From CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/02/bin.laden.raid/index.html?hpt=T1): > [@](#): > > A firefight was under way for most of the 40 minutes that U.S. Special Operations forces were in the compound, as the team encountered resistance from bin Laden and three other men, a senior defense official said. [From the New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/osama-bin-laden-dead.html?hp): > [@](#): > > When American operatives converged on the residence early on Monday morning, Bin Laden “resisted the assault force” and was shot in the head and killed near the end of an intense 40-minute gun battle, senior administration officials said. [From MSNBC](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42858824/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/): > [@](#): > > After bursts of fire over 40 minutes, 22 people were killed or captured. One of the dead was Osama bin Laden, done in by a double tap — boom, boom — to the left side of his face. His body was aboard the choppers that made the trip back. One had experienced mechanical failure and was destroyed by U.S. forces, military and White House officials tell NationalJournal. Certainly there are a lot of details in these accounts that seem confused or even outright contradictory, which is pretty much to be expected at this stage. You may say the media stories don’t hold together, but everything I’m reading is certainly saying there was a shoot-out. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/69 "2011-05-03T04:31:50Z")
About the only thing in this that I’m sort of sceptical about is the statement I heard today, in quite a few newscasts, that the primary intent of the mission was to capture him alive. That I don’t believe for a moment, even though for purposes of Political Correctness I can understand why they would say this. Can you visualize what a clusterfuck it would have been if Osama had been captured relatively unhurt? He would have immediately lawyered up with a dozen or so top defense lawyers, the trial would have taken at least three or four years to start, it would have cost the United States many hundreds of millions to prosecute, and it would have been a crap shoot whether or not he would have been convicted. And if convicted, some compassionate judge would likely have given him something like 120 days home detention, and 30 hours community service. Nossir - bring Osama out alive would have been an absolute disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/70 "2011-05-03T04:53:25Z")
Looking at the Google Earth pics of his compound and the computer models it was reasonably well defended from land attack but probably not indistinguishable from other very wealthy homes. Pakistan has incredible poverty so I would guess high walls around rich residences aren’t that uncommon and wouldn’t draw much attention, but a private militia, even a small one (20 guards or so) is going to need a barracks and you can’t reasonably expect to keep 20 men or more inside all the time and walking around the place with Uzis at all hours would seem a bit conspicuous, and regardless of how much support he has in Pakistan he also had a $50 million (or whatever) bounty on his head and any backers he had in the government were going to run screaming if he was spotted and their protection would be gone. He still had to keep a low profile, and a three story house with lots of privacy walls on each floor (7 feet walls around the balconies- tall enough to cover him and his headdress) would seem secure without being too secure to arouse suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/71 "2011-05-03T05:38:34Z")
To those people who are arguing that OBL must be dead because the government couldn’t possibly make something of this grand scale up, I’d like to (kind of) invoke Godwin’s Law and note that Hitler once stated, the great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie, than to a small one. That’s not to say that he isn’t dead, but rather that simply believing he’s dead because the government said so to be a bit… naive. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/72 "2011-05-03T05:51:40Z")
It’s not that the story is too big to be a lie. It’s that the lie would be too easily disproved, and that if it were disproved, it would be incredibly damaging politically. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/73 "2011-05-03T07:40:05Z")
On the burial at sea thing - I don’t think it was very wide, it seems quite clear that this is against muslem rites. However, having said that, I don’t think it will offend the “moderates”, and as to the “hardliners” - no matter how he was buried they would be inflamed. So I don’t think the public opinion really matters. And it is certainly better than having his grave found and memoralised (although if the gravesite couldn’t be kept secret something is wrong) On the compoound. You may well want to check out a joker callled Mas Selamat Kestari. This is another terrorist that escaped from custody in Singapore. He was eventually found to be hiding out in a village in a normal house just across the Malaysian border. He was there for a long time (more than a year is springing to mind, but I would need to google to verify) before he was caught. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/74 "2011-05-03T08:12:44Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > About the only thing in this that I’m sort of sceptical about is the statement I heard today, in quite a few newscasts, that the primary intent of the mission was to capture him alive. That I don’t believe for a moment, even though for purposes of Political Correctness I can understand why they would say this. > > Can you visualize what a clusterfuck it would have been if Osama had been captured relatively unhurt? He would have immediately lawyered up with a dozen or so top defense lawyers, the trial would have taken at least three or four years to start, it would have cost the United States many hundreds of millions to prosecute, and it would have been a crap shoot whether or not he would have been convicted. And if convicted, some compassionate judge would likely have given him something like 120 days home detention, and 30 hours community service. > > Nossir - bring Osama out alive would have been an absolute disaster. So basically your argument boils down to “if we hadn’t killed him now it’s possible he could have not been killed later if the judicial system ruled against it !” ? :dubious: I guess policemen should also just shoot suspects on sight. It’s always a crapshoot whether or not they get convicted, and sometimes they don’t even get the chair when they are. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/75 "2011-05-03T08:28:35Z")
Let’s see. The CIA confirmed his death, so did the Pakistani ISI, so did al Quaeda. As far as being killed years ago, by whom exactly?? And why wouldn’t the wasteful Dubya administration take credit for that? Are we saying that Dubya and the boys said, “No, Americans aren’t ready for that. Until they are, let’s spend billions on a war with mythical weapons of mass destruction and fuck a large part of the economy!” Believing conspiracy on Osama’s death is like saying that it wasn’t Pavarotti in the casket, it was a fattened up Placido Domingo, and HE really died from the Carter administration years ago for not liking bluegrass. 😃 If you’re a conspiratist, keep digging till you’re dead or dead tired on this one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/76 "2011-05-03T08:37:13Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > As far as being killed years ago, by whom exactly?? A time traveller, presumably, considering Bin Laden released his latest Best Off Jihad mix tape in January of this year. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/77 "2011-05-03T09:23:00Z")
The best course of action would have been to, respectfully, rocket his corpse to the moon. The same loons who won’t believe he’s dead also wouldn’t believe we could’ve gotten him to the moon either. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/78 "2011-05-03T10:11:02Z")
CNN has a photo gallery of the President, VP, top military folks, national security folks, etc, in the situation room during the raid. I know if it were a conspiracy, that lots of people would need to be involved, but it seems unlikely that all of these people, plus the CIA, plus the SEAL team guys, plus AQ, plus the Pakistanis, etc, all were involved in an elaborate coverup. [http://whitehouse.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/tense-moments/?hpt=T1](http://whitehouse.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/tense-moments/?hpt=T1) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/79 "2011-05-03T11:47:54Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Maybe, but you’d have thought that would have been emphasised more in the news if it had happened to any great degree. > > You would think, bin Laden, a guy like that would have lookouts posted around the compound and also an escape route in case there’s a drama. I’m surprised he didn’t have a tunnel leading out of the compound or at least some means of exit. That’s the first rule of special forces - always make sure you’ve got an exit. > > Sitting in a compound with no lookouts, no guards and no escape route seems a bit negligent to me, as far as evil masterminds go. I assume he was depending on obscurity. Armed lookouts attract attention but are worthless against smart bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/80 "2011-05-03T12:14:49Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Where is the proof of Bin Laden’s death? Seriously? Your username answers your question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510.md?page=5)