# Where is the proof of Bin Laden's death? Seriously? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510 "2011-05-02T20:29:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/81 "2011-05-03T12:25:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I’m not sure what news stories you’ve been reading, **mutantmoose** ; the stories I’ve seen have all talked about a 40-minute firefight before bin Laden was killed. > > That said, it appears he only had maybe three or four guards, which isn’t a huge number. On the other hand, this compound of his already sounds insanely conspicuous as it is–the Pakistani goverment is already facing enough questions without it having turned out that bin Laden was holed up in a giant high-tech base in the caldera of a semi-dormant volcano staffed by a couple of battalions of Ninja Assassin Bodyguards located in the middle of Islamabad Central Municipal Park. The more I hear about him being there, possibly for years, the more it seems likely that some powerful people in the Pakistani government had an arrangement with Bin Laden. Possibly an arrangement that may or may not have including them knowing exactly who was there and when. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/82 "2011-05-03T16:40:07Z")
Here’s what I think: It doesn’t matter if there are some conspiracy-minded people who don’t believe Bin Laden is dead. They always exist. The fact is, Bin Laden is dead, so he can’t plot or fund any more attacks. That’s what’s important. If some radical person thinks Bin Laden is stll alive, and wants to get some money from him to set up some fantastic terrorist attack, he can waste as much time as he likes. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/83 "2011-05-03T17:37:14Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > As others have said, claiming his death while he’s still alive would be political suicide. > > Others have suggested the possibility that he died years ago and they are now faking his death. > > Here’s the problem with that, as I see it. First it assumes that it’s known for certain that he died years ago. That implies that there are people who saw convincing proof years ago, and it’s unlikely that all (or even any) of them are in the Obama administration. In fact the likelihood is that they were in the Bush administration. Would Obama want to now claim responsibility for a death that political opponents know actually occurred years ago? As in the other case, it would be political suicide. Those are valid points, but you’re only looking at the two extreme scenarios (i.e. either he’s still alive or he died many years ago). This leaves out the far-more-plausible middle ground scenario… Say that Osama bin Laden died weeks or months ago of, for instance, kidney failure. The news trickled down his organization, was picked up by US operatives, and enabled them to track down his body. DNA tests confirmed the identity, and the US regime decided to spin it for all it’s worth by pretending that he was killed by US forces instead. Why lie? Because it’s cheap political capital. This way, nobody has to be held accountable for why the US’s most wanted man escaped capture for decades and was able to die in peace of natural causes. Instead, the government gets to bask in the artificial glow of a job well done. And, since so few people would have been privy to the truth in the first place, the risk of exposure is minimal. I am not, of course, saying that this scenario is true, for we have not been given any evidence one way or another. I am not, however, prepared to accept official US statements at face value. They have a nasty tendency of lying to us commoners. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/84 "2011-05-03T18:08:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They’ve been described as couriers, so they were apparently more than just bodyguards. It’s not clear who used the woman as a human shield. The Washington Post says flat-out that it was bin Laden, since the dead woman was one of his wives. Couriers are messengers. He had them to eliminate an electronic footprint that phones and computers would leave. He was very cautious, but apparently not cautious enough. They claim to have found lots of computer hard drives and message s in the house. How does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/85 "2011-05-03T18:16:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They claim to have found lots of computer hard drives and message s in the house. How does that make sense? How does it not make sense? The couriers brought him computer files. Computers don’t have to be online. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/86 "2011-05-03T18:16:51Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Back in the 1930’s, the press carried photos of dead gangsters-I recall seeing morgue workers posing with Bonnie and Clyde’s bullet-riddled bodies. John Dillinger’s corpse was also photographed. > Why doesn’t the gov just release a good quality photo of this pile of crap? And back in the fifties I could give my wife a black eye because the roast was dry. Believe it or not, things are actually different now than they were in the 1930s or 1950s. As for the OP, well, what could possibly prove it to you? A mouldering corpse that teabaggers and conspiracy nuts could point to and say “See? See where they allegedly shot him? Everyone knows that Osama had a mole on his forehead right there. They shot him there TO HIDE THE FACT THAT THEY GUY THEY KILLED DIDN’T HAVE THE MOLE. IT’S A FRAUD. A FRAUD!!!” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/87 "2011-05-03T18:29:43Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Couriers are messengers. He had them to eliminate an electronic footprint that phones and computers would leave. He was very cautious, but apparently not cautious enough. > They claim to have found lots of computer hard drives and message s in the house. How does that make sense? Communications by phone and _the internet_ can be tapped. You can have a computer and use it to store and organize your writings or contacts and whatever and just not connect the computer to the internet. What’s the problem with that concept? Maybe the couriers carried things like flash drives and CDs to and from the house. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/88 "2011-05-03T18:32:50Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > I’m not a conspiracy theorist Sorry to inform you of this but you now sound like one at least. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/89 "2011-05-03T18:37:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Sorry to inform you of this but you now sound like one at least. What’s the line? “You can ignore anything in a sentence that comes before the word 'but”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/90 "2011-05-03T18:37:28Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > To those people who are arguing that OBL must be dead because the government couldn’t possibly make something of this grand scale up, I’d like to (kind of) invoke Godwin’s Law and note that Hitler once stated, the great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie, than to a small one. That’s not to say that he isn’t dead, but rather that simply believing he’s dead because the government said so to be a bit… naive. It’s worth noting that Hitler is _also_ dead and widely believed to have been a bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/91 "2011-05-03T18:41:05Z")
it has been mentioned on various news sources that he was heavily dependant on storage media due to being “unconnected”. that is why the couriers were so very important and highly trusted. it took years to track this courier, and it was one phone call that id’d him. just one phone call. bin laden wasn’t an ignorant luddite, he knew how he could be tracked and he compensated for it very well. so well that it took 10 years, and one very lucky phone call to locate him. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/92 "2011-05-03T18:46:05Z")
In reference to having a small number of people at the site (that article quoted says 22 people killed or captured – that’s more than I have in MY compound), remember that for years al Qaeda has been intentionally organized into small “cells” that do not share all information, with the express purpose of limiting each cell’s exposure to betrayal, its “footprint” or visibility, and how much damage can be done to the network by rolling up any one cell. That’s worked pretty well for them and been a source of great frustration to us. I don’t think it’s surprising that Osama himself relied on that tried-and-true formula for protection, and kept his own “cell” small. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/93 "2011-05-03T18:57:53Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > In reference to having a small number of people at the site (that article quoted says 22 people killed or captured – that’s more than I have in MY compound) Just to clarify, most of the people there were women and children. Despite the “capture” wording, they were apparently allowed to remain on the compound. The dead men (bin Laden, one of his sons, and the couriers) lived there with their families, which makes sense after a fashion - if you’re in seclusion and you have a family, you either have to cut yourself off from them completely or hide with them. Otherwise you are going to be visiting them often, and providing a regular pattern of movements is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/94 "2011-05-03T19:44:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They claim to have found lots of computer hard drives and message s in the house. How does that make sense? Man’t gotta put his pr0n stash somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/95 "2011-05-03T23:18:37Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > To those people who are arguing that OBL must be dead because the government couldn’t possibly make something of this grand scale up, I’d like to (kind of) invoke Godwin’s Law and note that Hitler once stated, the great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie, than to a small one Hitler made that statement more than half a century before 24/7 news networks, the Internet and it’s billion sub-types, and in a nation with no freedom of speech. Osama died in a world where his neighbor was tweeting the firefight as it happened and millions were saying “didn’t either!” online before Obama had finished saying “we killed him”. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/96 "2011-05-03T23:34:00Z")
Can everyone stop attributing that quote to Hitler please, it was Goebbels - the propaganda minister: > [@](#): > > If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State [http://thinkexist.com/quotes/joseph\_goebbels/](http://thinkexist.com/quotes/joseph_goebbels/) ok, carry on ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/97 "2011-05-03T23:53:59Z")
We still haven’t seen the long form death certificate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/98 "2011-05-04T00:10:48Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Can everyone stop attributing that quote to Hitler please, it was Goebbels - the propaganda minister: > > [http://thinkexist.com/quotes/joseph\_goebbels/](http://thinkexist.com/quotes/joseph_goebbels/) > ok, carry on Wiki has the following Hitler quote from Mein Kampf: “All this was inspired by the principle–which is quite true within itself–that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation.” > **[Big lie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie)** > > A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a gross distortion or misrepresentation of the truth primarily used as a political propaganda technique. The German expression was first used by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf (1925) to describe how people could be induced to believe so colossal a lie because they would not believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler claimed that the technique had been used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on Ac... ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/99 "2011-05-04T00:24:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Just to clarify, most of the people there were women and children. Despite the “capture” wording, they were apparently allowed to remain on the compound. The dead men (bin Laden, one of his sons, and the couriers) lived there with their families, which makes sense after a fashion - if you’re in seclusion and you have a family, you either have to cut yourself off from them completely or hide with them. Otherwise you are going to be visiting them often, and providing a regular pattern of movements is a bad thing. They are not there any more - the Pakistanis took them away after we left. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510/100 "2011-05-04T00:26:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Communications by phone and _the internet_ can be tapped. You can have a computer and use it to store and organize your writings or contacts and whatever and just not connect the computer to the internet. What’s the problem with that concept? Maybe the couriers carried things like flash drives and CDs to and from the house. The reason for not being connected was to prevent us from tracing communications to him. I’m sure they thought that if we could get the disks and flash drives, it would be all over for them - and they were right. If I were an alQ operative I’d be shitting bricks right about now. I suspect that this data has a record of where his money is stashed also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-is-the-proof-of-bin-ladens-death-seriously/580510.md?page=6)