# Where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John originally called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 19, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456 "2008-06-19T10:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/21 "2008-06-19T18:37:43Z")
But there’s not definitive evidence that the Hebrews pronounced JHVH as “Yahweh”. The average Hebrew did not, in fact, pronounce it at all. And no one knows for certain how it was meant to be pronounced then. It could as well be Yahuwahu, as Larry Gonick once proposed. The similarity is very likely coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/22 "2008-06-19T18:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] He’s clearly saying that **Jove** , in Classical Latin, is pronounced “Yo-way” (something I noticed decades ago), not that **Jupiter** is. [/QUOTE] Jove is an Anglicized version of Iovis, the genitive form; in Classical Latin Jove wouldn’t be pronounced at all (at least not in the nominative). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/23 "2008-06-19T19:03:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Jove is an Anglicized version of Iovis, the genitive form; in Classical Latin Jove wouldn’t be pronounced at all (at least not in the nominative). Why the devil would it be in the genitive form? I see that Wikipedia says that Jove is an anglizcized form, but I;'m sure my Latin dictionary had Jove as the latin form. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/24 "2008-06-19T19:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Why the devil would it be in the genitive form? I see that Wikipedia says that Jove is an anglizcized form, but I;'m sure my Latin dictionary had Jove as the latin form. [/QUOTE] It’s _Iupiter, Iovis_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/25 "2008-06-19T19:42:09Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] It’s _Iupiter, Iovis_. [/QUOTE] Ablative: Jove (or Ioue), a case you’d use to translate expression such as “by Jove.” Of course, Latin /o/ is not equivalent to Hebrew /a/, so it’s not a perfect analogy even given the objections above (by the time they were in contact with the Romans, YHWH was not a word that would be spoken aloud anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/26 "2008-06-19T19:49:47Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] Ablative: Jove (or Ioue), a case you’d use to translate expression such as “by Jove.” [/QUOTE] I hadn’t thought of that. Answer’s **CalMeacham** ’s question rather nicely, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/27 "2008-06-20T03:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Jesus was Yehoshua or Yeshua, for instance. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard that the name “Jesus” was a variation of Joshua. > [@mwbrooks](#): > > Going the other way, he said the Roman pronunciation of “Caesar” would have sounded similar to the German “Kaiser,” which in fact is a direct derivation. The Russian title “Tzar” is another direct derivative of Ceasar. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/28 "2008-06-20T03:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] I’ve heard that the name “Jesus” was a variation of Joshua. [/QUOTE] Yes. Jesus and Joshua is originally the same name. Joshua is the Anglicized version of the original name and Jesus is the Anglicizised version of the Hellenized version of the original name. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/29 "2008-06-20T04:27:06Z")
There’s something called the Hebrew Names Bible, which is a Bible in English with the names directly transliterated from the Hebrew form. For example, in Matthew 1:2, where the KJV has “Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren,” the HNV has “Avraham became the father of Yitzchak. Yitzchak became the father of Ya`akov. Ya`akov became the father of Yehudah and his brothers,” and so forth. It’s one of the versions you can access at [www.blueletterbible.org](http://www.blueletterbible.org) . ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/30 "2008-06-20T13:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] But there’s not definitive evidence that the Hebrews pronounced JHVH as “Yahweh”. The average Hebrew did not, in fact, pronounce it at all. And no one knows for certain how it was meant to be pronounced then. It could as well be Yahuwahu, as Larry Gonick once proposed. The similarity is very likely coincidence. [/QUOTE] Yahuwahu. How about that. When I’ve heard people yell “Yahoo, wahoo!” they seemed mighty joyful. I wonder if they knew they were talking to God? Yahoo! Wahoo! Yeah, that feels good. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/31 "2008-06-20T15:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=psychonaut] Are there any exceptions? [/QUOTE] Jor-El got to keep his name. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/32 "2008-06-20T15:30:45Z")
OK, but how would Adam and Eve have pronounced their own names? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/33 "2008-06-20T16:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Tildrum] OK, but how would Adam and Eve have pronounced their own names? [/QUOTE] Throatwarbler and Mangrove, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/34 "2008-06-20T16:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Tildrum] OK, but how would Adam and Eve have pronounced their own names? [/QUOTE] “Eve” is actually very close to how the name is pronounced in Hebrew, which was a big surprise for me. As for Adam, that just means “man”; I don’t know how it became a proper name in the translation. I know of no place in the original text of Genesis where it’s used as such. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/35 "2008-06-20T16:52:14Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Were “Where” is used to refer to location. [/QUOTE] Thank you. That was annoying the bejeezus outta me. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/36 "2008-06-20T16:59:43Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] That’d be “grammar”. [/QUOTE] By Jove or should that be Yahweh? ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/37 "2008-06-20T17:22:35Z")
Well, the biggest problem I see answering the OP in a GQ way is that what we really have is people speaking in the Gospel from at least 4 languages and even those languages had differing accents - i.e the Galilean accents of Jesus ’ followers being easily identifiable to their fellow Jews of Jerusalem. They clearly pronounced things in different ways and it is hard to be absolute about how someone’s name (or anything) was pronounced. Further it is possible that they pronounced their own name differently than the guy who wrote it down in the Gospel. Please get that I am not sh^tting on the scholarly things written above - I see nothing “wrong”. I just think it is fair to point that out. To follow up **Priceguy** and **Justthinkin** ’s answer to **Psyhconaut** ’s posts on pronunciations I think “Tiberias” (a proper name, the Emperors name, a city name and what the Romans called the Sea of Galilee - Galilee itself being the Greek name of the “sea”) is a good example. Today the way a guy from the US would pronounce the name is different than how a guy from the “Rural UK” OP’er likely would. The Greek pronunciation of the name was different than the Roman pronunciation. The Hebrew pronunciation would have [differed](http://books.google.com/books?id=xAdIAGQSYksC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=tiberias+pronunciation+in+latin&source=web&ots=Odw0aI3ZVX&sig=G0RC7dXMBkVuZsL173IzD7_lyYk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result), and re my point above, [maybe even among the people there](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberian_vocalization) on the ground. So when Luke writes John begins his ministry in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius - how do we take that Tiberius was pronounced in Galillee, by Tiberius, by a rural UK guy, by an American, by a native Pharisee Jerusalamite? Is it spelled Tiberius or Tiberias? I think this GQ answer is that is depends on who is doing the pronouncing. I think Jesus and his followers would probably not say [Tiberius](http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?ggtibe03.wav=Tiberias) like a guy from the Rural UK in 2008. But the pronunciation that either the UK/US 2008 used would probably be closer to the way that Tiberius himself would say it than what Jesus’ guys would use. Other examples are the Greek followers of Paul (1 Cor 16:17), - Achaicus this is a Latinization of a Greek name Achaikos, heaven alone knows how a Jewish Merchant in Jerusalem or a Galilean Rabbi would pronounce that name. I think you run into the same thing with Jewish names that the guys in question “more than likely” used in their lifetime IOW: Silas becoming Silvanus, Saul becoming Paulus. Our pronunciation is probably closer to how the name was ‘supposed to be understood’ than Paul or Silas’ own Mother’s pronunciation of the Latin name would be. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/38 "2008-06-20T18:57:08Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] Yes. Jesus and Joshua is originally the same name. Joshua is the Anglicized version of the original name and Jesus is the Anglicizised version of the Hellenized version of the original name. [/QUOTE] I read somewhere that originally it was pronounced Jesús. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/39 "2008-06-20T19:00:00Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] I read somewhere that originally it was pronounced Jesús. [/QUOTE] To the best of our knowledge, Jesus pronounced it something like jay-shoo-ah. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456/40 "2008-06-21T00:11:57Z")
It’s now thought that _John_ was substantially dictated (late in his long life) by the Apostle of that name to his disciples at Ephesus, but went through editing etc by that Church. In any case, it appears to be based heavily upon what we think are the teachings of that Apostle. It very likely comes closest to the actual words of one of Jesus’s Apostles. Note that John is thought to have lived until his 80’s or more and perhaps his memory wasn’t all that sharp on the details, which is perhpas why that Gospels differs so much. _Mark_ might have been written by “Mark the interpreter of Peter”, at least to an extent. \*Matthew \*was almost certainly not written by that Apostle, although perhaps by his followers. _Luke_ might have been written by (at least partially) by Paul’s physician. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-matthew-mark-luke-and-john-originally-called-matthew-mark-luke-and-john/453456.md?page=3)