# where-o-where was the first mosh pit.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300 "2003-02-15T20:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kathij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@kathij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathij)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/21 "2003-02-17T01:36:56Z")
Oh, and congratulations! ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/22 "2003-02-17T07:41:48Z")
Merriam-Webster says that the first known use of the _term_ “mosh” is from 1987. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/23 "2003-02-17T11:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kathij \* > \*\*“The Dills” as in The Dils, as in Chip and Tony Kinman, I Hate the Rich, and Class War, and Mr. Big? As in one of the greatest SF punk bands of all time? See, I still get all excited. I’ve never seen Up in Smoke but will have to check it out. \*\* Thank you for the correction. Yep, the Dils. Avengers were another great band with penelope. Anyhoo, sounds like you were in the Bay Area scene, fab mab, on broadway, tool and die, elite club, clubfoot, berkeley square. We probably slammed each other more than once. Skinhead from Davis wuz I. Oh ya, we never called it a mosh pit. Slamming or the pit. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/24 "2003-02-17T15:26:42Z")
I just had a think about this. Mosh is maybe English in origen? Hell, we never said mosh, it was always THRASH. As in Thrasher Skateboard magazine (which I think just adopted a term in use at the time rather than pioneered this term). As in Fuck Art Trendy Let’s Thrash as seen on many a t-shirt in the very early 80’s. And we never called it punk or ourselves punks or punk rockers. Man, get your shit together, it was always HARDCORE. That was the American West Coast term, HARDCORE. None of that punk shit for us. there was even an LA band that called themselves America’s Hardcore with a Japanese/American lead singer. I also remembered vis-a-vis the Bad Brains. The Bad Brains played their first west coast show in 1981 or 1982 at the Elite Club along with Wasted Youth and a couple other bands I can’t recall. Jello called it a cultural exchange as the Bad Brains were playing SF, Flipper was playing in NY. Bwahahahahahhaha. If you want something more definative, find copies of Maximum Rock n Roll fanzine. They are probably even on line somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![kathij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@kathij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathij)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/25 "2003-02-17T17:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\* Avengers were another great band with penelope. Anyhoo, sounds like you were in the Bay Area scene, fab mab, on broadway, tool and die, elite club, clubfoot, berkeley square. We probably slammed each other more than once. Skinhead from Davis wuz I. \*\* Yeah, The Avengers would have to be at the top of my list, although they weren’t playing any more by the time I was old enough to sneak out of the house at night. And all the clubs you mention–speaking of the Tool and Die, you wouldn’t even recognize Valencia Street any more. And yes, the scene was still pretty small in those days–I’m sure we were in slamming proximity. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*I just had a think about this. Mosh is maybe English in origen? Hell, we never said mosh, it was always THRASH. As in Thrasher Skateboard magazine (which I think just adopted a term in use at the time rather than pioneered this term). As in Fuck Art Trendy Let’s Thrash as seen on many a t-shirt in the very early 80’s. \*\* Yeah, thrash. Most definitely. On a side note, I also believe (or want to believe) that skate punk started in northern California. The first ones I remember were Jaks skate team, boys from Petaluma and Vallejo. I’ve never had this confirmed, though. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And we never called it punk or ourselves punks or punk rockers. Man, get your shit together, it was always HARDCORE. That was the American West Coast term, HARDCORE. None of that punk shit for us. there was even an LA band that called themselves America’s Hardcore with a Japanese/American lead singer.\*\* Actually, this is where my own experience differs, just a little. We definitely called ourselves “punk”–but NEVER “punkers!” Ugh! Now, for my part, once “punk” became “hardcore,” yes, I was definitely there on the scene. I just didn’t quite wear that particular outfit. And another thing: earlier in the thread I used the phrase, “Punk as fuck.” That was an anachronism. We didn’t say that yet. But we did gob and swear a lot. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you want something more definative, find copies of Maximum Rock n Roll fanzine. They are probably even on line somewhere. \*\* Yup: [http://www.maximumrocknroll.com/](http://www.maximumrocknroll.com/) Although, unfortunately, as far as back issues, they’ve only got old covers right now, and not the stuff inside. By the way, I spoke with my Mom, who still lives in SF, yesterday. She said that the peace march was postponed for a day so that it wouldn’t conflict with the Chinese New Year’s parade (my favorite holiday). I thought you might get a kick out of this only-in-SF story. Kung Hei Fat Choy! (sp?) Okay, see you on the front porch in the old folk’s home. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/26 "2003-02-18T06:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kathij \* > \*\*Yeah, thrash. Most definitely. On a side note, I also believe (or want to believe) that skate punk started in northern California. The first ones I remember were Jaks skate team, boys from Petaluma and Vallejo. I’ve never had this confirmed, though. \*\* [old geezer voice]well, since we’re going down memory lane, I’ll fire off another response. I had forgotten about Jak’s team. Mofo was on the team, and I remember a really tall black dude named Pierre as some of the pioneers before the newer skateniks joined in. I forget Mofo’s band name but that was later in the evolution. Maybe this started in SF/Bay Area - which is one of the few large urban areas where an awful lot of people got around on public transport and skateboards. I would put SF over LA as pioneering skatepunk for this reason alone. That was also something you ran into when thrashing. In addition to the flailing limbs, beer can shower (on broadway and elite club), stage divers that came crashing down on unwary heads, there were also many a skateboard in the mix. Ahhh, those were fun days. Thrasher Skateboard Magazine was Santa Cruz based but heavily Bay Area, and they helped pioneer the music. Actually, Thrasher was started by one of the skateboard makers (maybe Santa Cruz) as a way to sell more boards. So did Pus-head, but he moved down from Idaho in the early 1980’s so he wouldn’t exactly be a pioneer. I would definately put the edge to SF over LA as pioneering skate punk. JFA (Jodie Foster’s Army) came out in what 1981? 1982? and they defined skateniks, but were not pioneers either although they did hail from Phoenix. The Big Boys were hardcore skaters from waaaaaaay back and they came from Austin Texas. Betcha big bucks they were among the first wave. Tim had steel plates in his forearm from a pool accident. There was also a Big Boys deck IIRC made by Santa Cruz. The above mentioned Pierre had one. The Big Boys were all honorary Jaks. If you look at the roll call of Maximum Rock n Rolls “If Punk is Dead, What The Hell is This?” at least half the bands if not 90% of them were skaters. Haven’t been on Valencia street in at least 10 years. That place was definately a rough neighborhood in the early 80’s. One strategically placed firebomb into the Tool and Die basement would have wiped out half the hardcore population. 🙂 [/old geezer voice] ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/27 "2003-02-18T08:29:15Z")
From furthur up the coast (B.C.) we definitely equated the skatepunk scene as coming out of California, although we didn’t really diferentiate between S.F. and L.A… whereever Agent Orange was from was probably cool. Three sidenotes… when I finally got to see a reunited Agent Orange in the early 90’s they suuuuuuucked… pathetic hair metal ego band… yeetch. Great early skating appreciation movie [Dogtown and Z-Boys](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0275309) although most of that scene slightly predated punk or hardcore in California. As for being Punks or Hardcore… I don’t actually remember calling ourselves anything specific… although anyone driving by in a Camero was sure to yell “fags!” ---
**Author:** ![kathij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@kathij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathij)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/28 "2003-02-18T16:19:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vl\_mungo \* > **From furthur up the coast (B.C.) we definitely equated the skatepunk scene as coming out of California, although we didn’t really diferentiate between S.F. and L.A… whereever Agent Orange was from was probably cool.** Agent Orange was from L.A. Perhaps I will spend my elderly years writing about the differences between L.A. and SF punk, a subject I find fascinating. Yes, you should pray that you never get stuck sitting next to me on a long bus ride or at a dinner table. [QUOTE] **Three sidenotes… when I finally got to see a reunited Agent Orange in the early 90’s they suuuuuuucked… pathetic hair metal ego band… yeetch.** [QUOTE] Ah, how very sad. If you ever get to see the Buzzcocks, they would be a good remedy to your disappointment. I saw them a couple of years ago and they were completely amazing–as punk as ever. > [@](#): > > \*\*As for being Punks or Hardcore… I don’t actually remember calling ourselves anything specific… although anyone driving by in a Camero was sure to yell “fags!” \*\* Yeah. Although being a woman, I can’t quite remember if there was a hollering equivalent for us. I do remember being called “freak,” of course, and strangers telling me I was ugly (always a badge of honor as far as I was concerned), and people yelling “Punk rock sucks,” and sometimes ending up in some fairly scary confrontational situations, though. My very favorite was when you’d walk by some teenagers (usually Mexican-/Central-American kids in the Mission District) and they’d mutter “PUNKrock” under their breath, in a very non-threatening, “hey, I see you” kind of way. There were lots of people, especially when the scene was small, who were just kind of fascinated by the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/29 "2003-02-18T18:46:35Z")
Missed the Buzzcocks, but I did get to see a few of the other reunited or still going strong bands after their heyday. Hell, around here I could go and see DOA this weekend if I wanted to (not really), and I did go to see Nomeansno a couple of months ago (still great). Other bands that were still good years later… The Fleshtones, The Dickies and The Damned. Not so good… The Misfits, Ramones (good in '82, sad in '92) and Sex Pistols ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/30 "2003-02-18T22:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*I just had a think about this. Mosh is maybe English in origin? Hell, we never said mosh, it was always THRASH. As in Thrasher Skateboard magazine (which I think just adopted a term in use at the time rather than pioneered this term). As in Fuck Art Trendy Let’s Thrash as seen on many a t-shirt in the very early 80’s. > \*\* I know that a discussion involving all these classic punk bands is no place for the venerable _Oxford English Dictionary_, but i thought i would point out that the _OED_ says that the intransitive verb “mosh” is “orig. and chiefly US.” Looks like it’s not English in origin. The earliest example of usage that the _OED_ gives is from 1987. However, the quote is from a newspaper, and common sense (as well as the experiences of people on this thread) suggest that the word was in use within the sub-culture(s) well before it ever made an appearance in the press. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300/31 "2003-02-19T11:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vl\_mungo \* > \*\*Hell, around here I could go and see DOA this weekend if I wanted to (not really), \*\* Damn, I would kill to see DOA again. Joey Shithead and New Wave Dave and the rest. 4 big fucking dudes from Vancouver. They were perhaps the best live band in their day, and they used to have a tour schedule that was seriously grueling. They came down the radio station I worked at and we spun records on the air for several hours in 1984. That was a lot of fun. Big fans of Black Sabbath and Hank Williams Junior (no joke). They were a real good bunch of guys that helped out and did so much to develop the scene. Sigh, probably not the same now though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-o-where-was-the-first-mosh-pit/155300.md?page=1)