# Where one acquires murder weapons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317 "2015-09-08T01:25:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/21 "2015-09-08T12:48:24Z")
What about a pointed stick? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/22 "2015-09-08T12:55:06Z")
Exactly. A shoe store. A fish store. Socks 'n Feathers R Us. Sorry, **OP**. You asked for it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/23 "2015-09-08T13:07:46Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > We’ve had several threads on this before. You can routinely find private citizens willing to do it, you can also find dealers who have 2 separate piles of guns on their table - a shop collection and their “personal” collection. You can buy from the dealer’s personal gun collection without any paperwork. Not sure if that is legal or not. > > Also, apparently the number of guns allowed to be in your personal collection isn’t limited. I’m not quite sure how the ATF determines if someone is actually a dealer or just a really active collector… “We” might have had threads before, but perhaps you’d be so good as to provide a cite regarding “two pile” gun dealing. I have attended many gun shows over the years and even had an FFL of my own for about 10 years, and I have never seen this. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/24 "2015-09-08T13:09:56Z")
Don’t do it, **dougie**. Despite your clever attempt at misdirection (I don’t have this in mind myself) the police will be on you in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/25 "2015-09-08T13:16:26Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > “We” might have had threads before, but perhaps you’d be so good as to provide a cite regarding “two pile” gun dealing. I have attended many gun shows over the years and even had an FFL of my own for about 10 years, and I have never seen this. [Here’s one.](http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/01/12117/atfs-struggle-close-down-firearms-dealers) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/26 "2015-09-08T13:50:52Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > [Here’s one.](http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/01/12117/atfs-struggle-close-down-firearms-dealers) That didn’t really cite “two-pile” dealing as much as it highlighted that some dealers were sloppy in their paperwork. It would seem that the US government itself might be an excellent source of murder weapons, as they “lose” lots and lots of guns. [http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/atf-agents-lost-track-of-dozens-of-their-own-guns-reports-show-b99213499z1-247182581.html](http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/atf-agents-lost-track-of-dozens-of-their-own-guns-reports-show-b99213499z1-247182581.html) [http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2013/02/atf-loses-fully-automatic-m-4-223-caliber-rifle-in-milwaukee-atf-sting-store-sells-jewelry-and-drug-paraphanalia/](http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2013/02/atf-loses-fully-automatic-m-4-223-caliber-rifle-in-milwaukee-atf-sting-store-sells-jewelry-and-drug-paraphanalia/) > **[US Park Police Loses Hundreds of Guns](https://pjmedia.com/bryan-preston-1/2013/06/28/us-park-police-loses-hundreds-of-guns-n179152)** > >   [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021200629.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021200629.html) [http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/18/government.guns/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/18/government.guns/index.html) That’s a lot of guns unaccounted for… ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/27 "2015-09-08T13:51:47Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > [This article](http://dnr.wi.gov/news/BreakingNews_Print.asp?id=481) found in the references of the Wikipedia article says that it turns bright blue and gives off a fishy odor when it dissolves in liquid. > [@](#): > > Chuck Horn, warden supervisor at Dodgeville, cautioned that the fly bait/soda pop mixture produces a blue color and gives off a fishy smell, “which may be the reason raccoons are drawn to it, but there’s also the possibility that it could attract children.” Thats ingredients in the flybait, the pure powder is white. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/28 "2015-09-08T13:57:10Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > What about a pointed stick? _Shut up!_ [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jfIkMXw_YM4/hqdefault.jpg "Self-Defence Against Fruit - Monty Python") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfIkMXw_YM4) ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/29 "2015-09-08T14:00:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That didn’t really cite “two-pile” dealing as much as it highlighted that some dealers were sloppy in their paperwork. It would seem that the US government itself might be an excellent source of murder weapons, as they “lose” lots and lots of guns. > > That’s a lot of guns unaccounted for… Eh. When I was in the Army, there was a lot of paranoia about losing 3-round burst M-16s. I was like “uh, $800 and a drivers license gets you this same rifle, brand new, with a nicer rail system, with everything but the 3 round burst that sucks anyway…” I never had to use my rifle in combat, but the 3 round burst is awful on the range - it turns the weapon from something that can reliably hit a stationary man-sized target at 300 meters, and have an ok chance if you fire several rounds and are in a good position at 500 meters, to something that can barely hit a full size military truck at 200 meters. So if I wanted a “murder weapon” in a hurry, I’d just go to the local store and buy one. They _say_ the government doesn’t keep a registry, so if you used cash withdrawn months before…not sure if you could get caught from the purchase. I mean, sure, murder is moderately hard\* to get away with - there’s countless forms of evidence, etc, I’m just wondering if the authorities could trace the purchase of the specific firearm used to commit it. I know they can match that firearm if they actually find it, but if it was completely destroyed after the crime was committed, then how… \*Now, don’t be committing murders, but, apparently, like 40% of murders are never solved. That’s an awful lot. TV always makes it seem like the authorities can solve a murder from the paint chip and a hair left at the crime scene, but it appears that almost half the time they fail totally. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/30 "2015-09-08T14:00:48Z")
Ethylene glycol seems popular, and you can get it anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/31 "2015-09-08T14:04:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > What about a pointed stick? …I’d rather hand you a pack of TUMS after realizing that you had to read all this. How hard would it be to imagine someone reading this page & saying, “OMFG… what is WRONG with these people!?” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/32 "2015-09-08T14:10:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Habeed** : > > In the movies, they always kill the victim by overdosing them on heroin and they plant a small stash of the drugs on them. This doesn’t sound like it would be all that hard to pull off - Bill Cosby them, then while they are out of it, set up the scene, inject a syringeful of heroin, and rub the decedent’s hands all over over the heroin paraphernalia. On a similar note, I was once in a play where the murderer extracted pure nicotine from tobacco, and used it to poison her victims. If the victim was known to be a smoker, the presence of nicotine in the blood wouldn’t look suspicious. At least, according to the play. I imagine that the _amount_ of nicotine would still stand out, and I don’t know how easy it is to extract. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/33 "2015-09-08T14:13:07Z")
Who needs to imagine? I am judging all of you right now. Also, ISTM the easiest way to kill someone would be to crush up a bunch of short-release opioids and mix them into food. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/34 "2015-09-08T14:22:32Z")
A recent [study](http://www.scribd.com/doc/276724037/Preventive-Medicine-University-of-Chicago-gun-study-August-2015) of gangs in Chicago found that most guns owned by violent offenders had been acquired via family or friends, and that purchases from dealers were rare. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/35 "2015-09-08T15:06:44Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > In the movies, they always kill the victim by overdosing them on heroin and they plant a small stash of the drugs on them. This doesn’t sound like it would be all that hard to pull off - Bill Cosby them, then while they are out of it, set up the scene, inject a syringeful of heroin, and rub the decedent’s hands all over over the heroin paraphernalia. > > \*\*If the roofies are a mix of commonly abused prescription drugs and alcohol, \*\*presumably the authorities would just say “heroin, alcohol, and oxycontin. What a shame, what a shame. Drugs are bad, just say no, our work here is done…” > > On the other side of the equation, I wonder how you would go about solving a homicide like this. Before you can even dedicate resources to it, you have to make sure it wasn’t an accidental drug overdose - maybe you could tell by the lack of long term liver damage from persistent uses of illegal drugs? The bolded section really confused me for a bit, as “roofies” is a slang term for the drug Rohypnol and not a slang term for anything surreptitiously slipped to someone. But in general, yes, some police departments seem fairly quick to identify a death as overdose and move on with little investigation. Suicides have also been this way, and thus both fake overdose and fake suicide have been used as covers for homicide. In terms of investigating, I suppose you could talk to friends and family about the history of drug use/abuse (not a high-tech method, but it would work well). Also, you could do a hair drug test (which could prove that the decedent hadn’t done heroin in the previous six months or so, for instance), in addition to all the usual autopsy stuff. Once you decide to investigate, there are probably a lot of methods to help determine the probability of accidental OD vs. homicide, but the biggest step is deciding to investigate in a serious manner instead of just brushing it off as “another junkie OD,” which is exactly why it’s a good plot device. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/36 "2015-09-08T15:27:34Z")
Right, it gives the maverick detective a chance to go against the orthodoxy, and also a chance for him to be relatively easily vindicated once the test results do eventually grudgingly come in. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/37 "2015-09-08T15:40:31Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > \*Now, don’t be committing murders, but, apparently, like 40% of murders are never solved. That’s an awful lot. TV always makes it seem like the authorities can solve a murder from the paint chip and a hair left at the crime scene, but it appears that almost half the time they fail totally. All murders don’t get the same amount of attention. Even though all that snazzy CSI stuff is available, every murder investigation doesn’t use it. All that you can be sure will happen is that the cops will question people known to be associated with the victim in some way, if such people can be identified. They’ll take some photos too. The rest of that stuff? Not available in every jurisdiction and there are budgetary limits and work backlogs even in the ones that have it. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/38 "2015-09-08T15:53:15Z")
Toxic gases can be liberated by combining standard household chemicals. I don’t think it would be hard to get a nitrogen canister, and the USA has more carbon monoxide generators per capita than almost any other country. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/39 "2015-09-08T15:56:24Z")
Pity the would-be poisoner :dubious:, since forensic science has gotten a lot better at detecting “undetectable” poisons (such as succinylcholine), and controls are tighter on toxic substances due to terrorism concerns. Also, common household products are considerably less useful than formerly as tools of killers. Ethylene glycol antifreeze is being replaced by the much less toxic propylene glycol. And try as you might, I doubt you’ll ve able to find arsenical flypaper (used in two prominent murders around the turn of the 20th century, and [featured in a classic Dashiell Hammitt detective story](http://www.wired.com/2012/10/fly-paper-arsenic-mystery-dashiell-hammell/)). ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317/40 "2015-09-08T16:00:06Z")
[ol] [li]Vacation at Grand Canyon.[/li][li]Take a day hike along the rim.[/li][li]Oops, they tripped.[/li][/ol] Priceless! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-one-acquires-murder-weapons/730317.md?page=3)