# Where should I work? For Science! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 20, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932 "2018-08-20T20:13:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/21 "2018-08-21T01:13:16Z")
Your profile indicates you’re currently in Canada, so I voted for Auckland and Brisbane, since they are the farthest from where you are now. Having been to neither Australia nor New Zealand, I can’t make an informed recommendation on either. The only city on your list I have visited is San Francisco, It’s a fabulous place to spend a day, or a week; whether or not it would be a good place to live rather depends on how you like cities. I feel that San Francisco does have a more ‘European’ feel than most US cities, if that makes any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/22 "2018-08-21T04:15:25Z")
So why are you not interested in any of the China offers you’ve had? San Francisco seems like a major hub of AI, but as others have said the cost of living is high and traffic is miserable. Do Australia or New Zealand offer good AI programs? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/23 "2018-08-21T04:52:50Z")
I have loved the little time I’ve had in Germany so ----------------- ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/24 "2018-08-21T05:13:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So why are you not interested in any of the China offers you’ve had? > > San Francisco seems like a major hub of AI, but as others have said the cost of living is high and traffic is miserable. > > Do Australia or New Zealand offer good AI programs? They’re both in Beijing (21M people, ugh), and I just don’t think I could tolerate a city of that size especially with the pollution issues. Both Australia and New Zealand have good, world class centers for AI research (see below). At 45 (in 8 days, looking forward to birthday cake), I’m not trying to make a big splash, and have a long and distinguished career. I’m just trying to enjoy what will likely be my last career (I worked in IT, management and the army, so I’ve enjoyed some good variety). Also at 45, I want to live somewhere nice. I’m done with the rat race, traffic, and angry people, and trying to get ahead, thpppt, to heck with all that. So the smaller, cleaner, nicer cities are very appealing to me. Australia > **[Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute | UTS](https://www.uts.edu.au/research/centres/australian-artificial-intelligence-institute)** > > The Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute (AAII) is a world leading research institute in artificial intelligence. > **[​Labor plans to stand up AU$3m Australian AI centre of excellence](https://www.zdnet.com/article/labor-plans-to-stand-up-au3m-australian-ai-centre-of-excellence/)** > > The federal opposition has committed to investing AU$3 million to help establish a National Centre of AI Excellence that will support research, advice, and industry acceleration. New Zealand > **[Centre for Artificial Intelligence Research (CAIR) - AUT](https://www.aut.ac.nz/study/study-options/engineering-computer-and-mathematical-sciences/research/centre-for-artificial-intelligence-research-cair)** > > Find information on AUT's Centre for Artificial Intelligence Research (CAIR)'s mission and research aims. I’m sure there’s more than those but those are the ones I know of for certain. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/25 "2018-08-21T05:23:47Z")
Seeing the thread on woodcarving just reminded me of something. See when my dad’s “career” took off as a woodcarver, he said to me that every day he feels like he’s retired because it doesn’t feel like work. That’s how I feel about research. I honestly feel like I’ve retired, because I absolutely love what I do. So I just don’t feel any pressure to anything more than what I’m doing. I’m 100% content right now (well, with my own life, maybe not with what’s happening in the world). I never really understood what my dad meant, until just recently when I started looking for a new job and there’s was no anxiety, pressure, nothing. It feels great. So why would I want to spoil that by going somewhere I’d be miserable? Who wants to “retire” someplace miserable? LOL 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/26 "2018-08-21T05:25:33Z")
In that case I’d look at Germany & Switzerland. The opportunity to travel all over Europe would be nice, and I would assume that those nations have laws promoting good work/life balances. Plus the cities listed aren’t overly populated. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/27 "2018-08-21T07:35:13Z")
Come to Australia (Brisbane). No crocs that far south, the drop-bears won’t actually kill you provided you eat Vegemite, and the climate is to die-for (provided none of the other lethal things get you first). Seriously lovely city though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/28 "2018-08-21T08:18:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In that case I’d look at Germany & Switzerland. The opportunity to travel all over Europe would be nice, and I would assume that those nations have laws promoting good work/life balances. Plus the cities listed aren’t overly populated. I endorse this view. Great work life/balance to be had, and fabulous opportunities for easy weekend travel to multiple countries (and to use up the extensive holiday allowance you’ll receive). ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/29 "2018-08-21T20:03:05Z")
For the European options, you should realize that Switzerland is crazy expensive. If this is reflected in higher pay, then it is a great deal if you want to travel around (everywhere else will feel like a bargain). If the money is the same (as in say, Trier) you’re probably better off somewhere else (Trier for instance). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/30 "2018-08-21T20:23:22Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Come to Australia (Brisbane). No crocs that far south, the drop-bears won’t actually kill you provided you eat Vegemite, and the climate is to die-for (provided none of the other lethal things get you first). > > Seriously lovely city though. 🙂 What about the trapdoor alligators? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/31 "2018-08-21T22:26:47Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > For the European options, you should realize that Switzerland is crazy expensive. If this is reflected in higher pay, then it is a great deal if you want to travel around (everywhere else will feel like a bargain). If the money is the same (as in say, Trier) you’re probably better off somewhere else (Trier for instance). The absolute pay in Zurich is much higher than the others. I converted each to a purchasing power metric to ensure they’re all about the same. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/32 "2018-08-22T03:25:23Z")
Is this a post doc? Joining a research group? Building a research group around your research? For those worried about cost of living, competent researchers in a hot topic field are well compensated, even at an entry-level (post doc). Especially in places like San Francisco, where a good researcher can double their salary just by snagging the right opening across the street. From a scientific impact standpoint, I’d prioritize: San Francisco Zurich (ETH?, IBM?) Brisbane Auckland Trier Tampa If you are less interested in the hurly burly of science and just want to quietly research and discuss with colleagues, occasionally presenting at a conference, then I’d shuffle these a bit: Auckland (NZ is really far away from everything) Brisbane Trier Zurich Tampa San Francisco Finally, for those thinking about this as the type of job like IT, administration, etc., please understand that if one is a competent researcher (as evinced by your thesis work) in a STEM discipline from a ranked research school (one of the ways you can tell you are at a ranked school is that once you are in the PhD program, the university pretty much pays you to attend), you are pretty much assured of a middle-class to upper-middle class salary for engaging in what is essentially high level intellectual play. International travel is not only possible, but generally expected, and even lowly postdocs can expect to be able to travel to a couple of international destinations every year. It’s not hard, all you have to do is earn one of those college degree that is “no worth it” according to many on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/33 "2018-08-22T03:37:25Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > Is this a post doc? Joining a research group? Building a research group around your research? > > For those worried about cost of living, competent researchers in a hot topic field are well compensated, even at an entry-level (post doc). Especially in places like San Francisco, where a good researcher can double their salary just by snagging the right opening across the street. > > From a scientific impact standpoint, I’d prioritize: > > San Francisco > Zurich (ETH?, IBM?) > > Brisbane > Auckland > Trier > Tampa > > If you are less interested in the hurly burly of science and just want to quietly research and discuss with colleagues, occasionally presenting at a conference, then I’d shuffle these a bit: > > Auckland (NZ is really far away from everything) > Brisbane > Trier > Zurich > Tampa > San Francisco > > Finally, for those thinking about this as the type of job like IT, administration, etc., please understand that if one is a competent researcher (as evinced by your thesis work) in a STEM discipline from a ranked research school (one of the ways you can tell you are at a ranked school is that once you are in the PhD program, the university pretty much pays you to attend), you are pretty much assured of a middle-class to upper-middle class salary for engaging in what is essentially high level intellectual play. International travel is not only possible, but generally expected, and even lowly postdocs can expect to be able to travel to a couple of international destinations every year. > > It’s not hard, all you have to do is earn one of those college degree that is “no worth it” according to many on this board. I was so sure you were going to recommend Sindh… ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/34 "2018-08-22T03:54:15Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I was so sure you were going to recommend Sindh… I thought it would take longer to be caught out… When I joined the board, I thought long and hard about a good user name that would show I wanted to fit in. (For a while **LoudMouthCondescendingKnowItAll** was the leading candidate.) Then I realized the perfect description that was also an obscure joke… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/35 "2018-08-22T04:59:28Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > If they all pay the same, you’ll either live like a king anywhere but San Francisco or starve in San Francisco (or spend an hour and a half on BART getting to and from work). > > eta: And I see that everybody hates Florida. Go figure. Depends on how much he is going to make in San Francisco. I live at the end of one of the BART lines, and 1500 sq. ft houses near me are over $1 million. But the weather is great. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/36 "2018-08-22T05:10:13Z")
I have been to Trier, Zurich and San Francisco. I would pick Zurich, with Trier a close second. Side note: Trier is where Karl Marx was born, and his family’s house is now a museum. Kind of neat standing in the very room where Marx was born. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/37 "2018-08-22T05:27:32Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I have been to Trier, Zurich and San Francisco. I would pick Zurich, with Trier a close second. > > Side note: Trier is where Karl Marx was born, and his family’s house is now a museum. Kind of neat standing in the very room where Marx was born. What, you mean he wasn’t born in the Trier Municipal Hospital? ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/38 "2018-08-22T08:16:55Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > The absolute pay in Zurich is much higher than the others. I converted each to a purchasing power metric to ensure they’re all about the same. That would make it my top choice (in Europe at least). Zurich is fairly big and international and you can go to Germany, France, Italy, Austria, etc for a day trip if you want… where everything would feel cheap as hell. Also, the Alps are kind of ridiculous, especially if you like the color green. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/39 "2018-08-22T15:51:29Z")
I want to thank everybody for your feedback. It is going to be months before I find out what is going to happen (probably by the end of the year), but I’ll be sure to put an update here. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932/40 "2018-11-29T15:16:52Z")
Just an update. I have an interview next week at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego (La Jolla). If anybody has any viewpoints on working the Salk Institute, please feel free to share. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-should-i-work-for-science/819932.md?page=3)