# Where the hell do you find these historical costume items? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 16, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298 "2009-09-16T09:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/1 "2009-09-16T09:17:39Z")
I’m trying to complete a 17th-century costume and I have been looking like hell for these two things that would really put the finishing touches on it, but I can’t find them for sale. 1. A tall, tapered, hat with a wide curved brim. In essence something like what [this Dutch soldier](http://www.swiss-artists.com/prints/DeGeyn/deGeyn1.jpg) is wearing. These hats seem to have been especially popular among the Dutchmen in the 17th century. Note that I am not talking about a “Cavalier” or “Musketeer” hat, both of which are neither tall enough or pointed enough to match the type of hat that I want. But, obviously, I don’t even know what the fuck it’s called, let alone where to purchase it. 2. 17th-century shoes, like the ones that [this man](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Richard_Sackville_Earl_of_Dorset.jpg) is wearing. Or like [these.](http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/engravings/1660/1660.jpg) There are a billion websites selling “Renaissance clothing” but not a single one of them sells late-Renaissance shoes. Where the hell do you get shoes like this? I’d really appreciate any help. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/2 "2009-09-16T09:44:27Z")
You’re not going to like my answer, but - you make them yourself. There are some suppliers - you might have some hat luck with someone from[this list](http://www.thesealedknot.org.uk/sklinks.asp?RNG=149&PRT=1), but I wouldn’t hold out much hope. BTW, that’s a “sugarloaf”-style hat, I think. Otherwise “beaver hat” might work as a search term too. The shoes - even less luck, I’m almost certain. Those are some fancy shoes. Your best hope is if you have lady-sized feet. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/3 "2009-09-16T09:46:55Z")
I wear a size 9 1/2; maybe I could find a woman’s shoe that was something similar to the one there. I don’t know anything about the terminology of women’s shoes beyond “high heel” and “low heel”. I don’t think I have the time to have the hat custom made. It has to be ready by October. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/4 "2009-09-16T10:05:29Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > 1. A tall, tapered, hat with a wide curved brim. In essence something like what [this Dutch soldier](http://www.swiss-artists.com/prints/DeGeyn/deGeyn1.jpg) is wearing. These hats seem to have been especially popular among the Dutchmen in the 17th century. Note that I am not talking about a “Cavalier” or “Musketeer” hat, both of which are neither tall enough or pointed enough to match the type of hat that I want. But, obviously, I don’t even know what the fuck it’s called, let alone where to purchase it. It’s called a [Capotain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capotain). It’s most commonly associated with the Pilgrims in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/5 "2009-09-16T10:09:13Z")
Unbelievable! How did you even _know_ that? I looked up “‘capotain’ purchase” on Google; the very first result was: “Buy Monsieur Capotain Flavoured Lubricant in Canada - Yahoo … Yahoo! Canada Shopping - Monsieur Capotain Flavoured Lubricant.” It looks like these hats are not exactly in high demand. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/6 "2009-09-16T10:15:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Unbelievable! How did you even _know_ that? Your picture reminded me of a Pilgrim’s hat, only blue. I typed “pilgrim’s hat” into Wikipedia and a couple of links later, as the Papists say, _voila_. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/7 "2009-09-16T11:55:25Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > 1. 17th-century shoes, like the ones that [this man](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Richard_Sackville_Earl_of_Dorset.jpg) is wearing. Or like [these.](http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/engravings/1660/1660.jpg) There are a billion websites selling “Renaissance clothing” but not a single one of them sells late-Renaissance shoes. Where the hell do you get shoes like this? > > I’d really appreciate any help. Well, you can go to Pennsic war and find a cobbler. I have had friends get this [shoe catalog](http://www.amazondrygoods.com/) from Amazon Drygoods. Looking at the [actual shoe](http://www.costumes.org/History/17thcent/shoes/1625-1649.jpg) it looks like someone could make them fairly easily [but then again I make Elizabethan womens clothing for fun, so Im nuts anyway] [Townsend](http://jas-townsend.com/) has some nonfancy mens shoes and buckles to dress them up. ---
**Author:** ![singular1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@singular1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singular1)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/8 "2009-09-16T12:49:14Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I wear a size 9 1/2; maybe I could find a woman’s shoe that was something similar to the one there. I don’t know anything about the terminology of women’s shoes beyond “high heel” and “low heel”. > > I don’t think I have the time to have the hat custom made. It has to be ready by October. Good luck with that - you’re going to need a woman’s size 11½ or 12, and that’s going to require a specialty shop, I think. Payless has a teeny tiny selection of size 12s, maybe 10 pair at a store, but you might have more luck online. Here’s their [size 12 page](http://www.payless.com/store/catalog/subsubcategory.jsp?pageSize=80&trail=1016%3Acat10243%3A1004%3A12.00&sort=&subCatId=cat10243&catId=cat10088&changedFacetValue=&brandId=&categoryType=) - maybe you could get some velvet ribbons, remove the buckles and dress [these](http://www.payless.com/store/product/detail.jsp?skuId=071893120&productId=65564&subCatId=cat10243&catId=cat10088&lotId=071893&category=&catdisplayName=Womens+) up for a close approximation? I don’t know how authentic a look you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Avarie537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Avarie537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avarie537)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/9 "2009-09-16T12:54:38Z")
Try to find a local costumer’s shop. And by that, I don’t mean the Halloween megastores that pop up in September. Go to the website of the National Costumers’ Association ([www.costumers.org](http://www.costumers.org)) and try to find a location near you. If they don’t have what you need, they may be able to make it for you or tell you who does have it. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/10 "2009-09-16T13:18:44Z")
Try googling Dirty Billy Hats. Dirty Billy makes some of the best historical hats around, and he might have the 17th century hat you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![foxymoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@foxymoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foxymoron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/11 "2009-09-16T14:13:31Z")
The shoes remind me of some Fluevogs I’ve seen. [www.Fluevog.com](http://www.Fluevog.com) ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/12 "2009-09-16T14:55:40Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > 1. A tall, tapered, hat with a wide curved brim. In essence something like what [this Dutch soldier](http://www.swiss-artists.com/prints/DeGeyn/deGeyn1.jpg) is wearing. These hats seem to have been especially popular among the Dutchmen in the 17th century. Note that I am not talking about a “Cavalier” or “Musketeer” hat, both of which are neither tall enough or pointed enough to match the type of hat that I want. But, obviously, I don’t even know what the fuck it’s called, let alone where to purchase it. > > I’d really appreciate any help. [Hillbilly Hat](http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=hillbilly+hats&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20)? A biggins or [Men’s Elizabethan High crowned Hat](http://shop.gewandschnitt.de/shop/katalog.php/renaissance%20%20elisabethanisch%20lt/index.html)? ---
**Author:** ![Mahna\_Mahna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47c2d/32.png) [@Mahna\_Mahna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahna_Mahna)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/13 "2009-09-16T16:04:15Z")
As far as the shoes go, that style tends to be associated far more with the baroque and rococco periods, rather than the late renaissance. It’s been ages since I’ve had to look up costume resources and my links are woefully out of date, but hopefully some of our resident SCAdians can point you in the right direction. [These](http://www.outfit4events.com/thirty-years-war-early-baroque-shoes-p-210.html) are fairly close to the ones in your illustrations, but they’ll cost you a pretty penny. Worst case, you could potentially alter a pair of women’s Marie Antoinette costume shoes if you’re the crafty type (and if you can find plain ones that aren’t covered in glitter and trim). Strangely enough, there’s a serious dearth of costume shoes for Louis XIV, probably because most modern day men wouldn’t be caught dead wearing heels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/14 "2009-09-16T17:44:30Z")
There’s a number of excellent merchants who specialize in this, but they’re mostly found by word of mouth. A lot of them don’t have websites, even. Plantagenet Shoes is well thought-of – they’re quite expensive and are really only a good option if you are looking to get a pair of shoes to use with some frequency. If you’re not planning to get into historical recreation as a major hobby and you aren’t independently wealthy, they may not be the best place to go. They also seem to be specializing at a bit earlier period than you’re aiming for, but if you know what you want and you’re willing to pay for it they should be able to make it. [These](http://www.susansshoes.com/pilgrim-10.html) aren’t too bad for a cheap alternative. The heel is pretty low, I’m afraid. To get a good heeled shoe of the right size and shape you might need to go to a specialty shoe catalog and hope for luck. Hats are harder. You might look for a list of Pennsic merchants, skim it for haberdashers, and see if you can get a special order. Again, though, that’s unlikely to be cheap. Also: dang, **Mahna Mahna** , those are nice but ridiculously expensive. I’ve seen the Renaissance-era shoes on that site going for a third of the price at [revival.us](http://revival.us). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/15 "2009-09-16T17:46:18Z")
holy bad editing, batman… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/16 "2009-09-16T18:16:47Z")
Another thought – check out a local dance shoe outlet if you have one. Capezio’s website has [these](http://www.capeziostore.com/Capezio-Theo-Tie-p/410.htm), for example: not buyable online but you might be able to find them at a local outlet. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/17 "2009-09-16T20:39:56Z")
Since I came here to mention the word capotain and have been beaten to it, I’ll add some trivia: As most know, most clothing was handmade in the 16th/17th century and thus it was extremely expensive. Few people who weren’t royalty or very rich aristocracy had more than 2 changes of wardrobe. Clothing was so valuable that it was not only mentioned in wills (and sometimes a hat or a dress might be passed down for generations- altered accordingly until it wore out, then it’d be used for rags) but was among the most common items stolen either for the thief to wear or to pawn (for every town or village had second hand clothing dealers). In 1612 a family in Pendle, Lancashire, England headed by a matriarch called Mother Chattox (real name Anne Whittle) was known, or at least rumored, to deal in stolen clothing. One specific piece of clothing they were accused of stealing was a capotain from a local merchant. They were taken to trial and found not guilty. Thereafter the ugly, hunched old Mother Chattox took to wearing the beat up old capotain, the top inverted a bit to make it more comfortable or perhaps to make it less recognizable, but she was hardly ever seen without it, a sort of flaunting it to her accusers. And by the way, she also was said to be a witch, as was her archenemy Elizabeth Southerns, another old crone who was called “Mother Demdike” since that was the name of the family she headed. I won’t go into the details of the trial but it’s very interesting- all sorts of accusations of devil worship and curses and black magick and the like that ended with ten members of the Demdike and Chattox clans being hanged. They’re known collectively as the [Pendle Witches](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_witches). Reason for mentioning: written accounts in pamphlet form of the trials and the hangings were bestsellers in the 17th century. King James I & VI, a fanatic on the subject of witchcraft (and author, at least nominally, of the then [definitive book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemonologie) on the topic), was among the most interested, and there is some belief that the role of the witches in _MacBeth_ (a play already written largely to suck up to him by near deifying his Scottish ancestors) may have been beefed up or possibly added altogether to reflect the fascination with the Pendle witches. (There’s debate on when MacBeth was written- it was performed as early as 1611 but probably not in its final form, and James had it performed many times.) Many of the pamphlets and other written and dramatized accounts of the trials featured likenesses of Old Mother Chattox in her stolen battered inverted capotaine. [This is one](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Nance_Redferne_%26_Chattox.jpg)of those likenesses; Mother Chattox is on the right. (She, her daughter and her granddaughter were accused as witches, the trio being another reason some Shakespearean scholars believe they may have inspired the three witches in MacBeth; before then it’s possible there was only one or that there was no witch.) And the reason this relates to the OP: to this day, though few Americans know her name, Mother Chattox (who also was accused of bewitching her broom to fly) is the image of the Halloween witch: the cape, the flying broom, the literally “warts and all” crone description, and that inverted black capotaine she stole is sold by the millions each year as a witch hat. (It’s basically the same hat that you see a month later in pics of Puritans, but beaten up and stretched.) A pity she never got royalties or she may could have gotten a better defense attorney. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/18 "2009-09-16T20:42:45Z")
And speaking of witchcraft and capotaines, if you can’t find one under that name look up “theatrical costumers”. Most theatrical costumers stock costumes for specific plays that are often performed in colleges/little theaters/etc., so that you can look up _1776_ and get frock coats and knee breeches, _Music Man_ for turn-of-the-century fashions, etc… One of the most frequently performed is _The Crucible_. If you’ll google theatrical costumers and then type in Crucible you’ll probably find one. ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/19 "2009-09-16T21:21:23Z")
They don’t seem to have the right hat (they’re a little later period than you want) but you might be able to find other things at [Smoke and Fire Company](http://www.smoke-fire.com/Default.htm). ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-the-hell-do-you-find-these-historical-costume-items/510298/20 "2009-09-17T02:13:41Z")
The woman’s dress shoe at G. Gedney Godwin looks close. [Women’s Shoes](http://www.gggodwin.com/cartgenie/prodList.asp?scat=42)