# Where was Barack Obama, to stand for Democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597 "2015-01-12T03:49:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/521 "2015-01-20T20:14:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It would seem that you are the one lacking in nuance. I haven’t cited polls to prove that Obama is dishonest or incompetent. Only to establish that my belief isn’t just the belief of some desperate dead ender shaking my fist at a President I dislike and trying to make everyone see the truth about him. Your cites are unconvincing, if this is your intention. I still see you as a fist-shaker with extreme personal dislike and disdain for the President. > [@](#): > > The public already sees him much the way I do. I represent the majority position in this regard. You represent something close to a majority position from a certain poll last summer. That’s not necessarily the public at large today. > [@](#): > > That does not prove I’m right, it just proves that I’m not some crank. No it doesn’t – lots of people can believe in crankery. > [@](#): > > The cranks are the ones who cite his adequateness as if it’s assumed and doesn’t have to be proven. Because they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that they are actually in the majority. Problem is, they are only in the majority here on SDMB. And boy, you guys get angrier and angrier the more the outside world demonstrates it’s “ignorance” by not liking the President. Just more and more cherry-picking polls and insisting that a poll from last summer when Obama wasn’t actually campaigning for himself is the end-all word of the public. No, you don’t actually know what the public thinks based on one poll from last summer. Again, you’re unable to actually talk about him without your bias showing through in spades. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/522 "2015-01-20T20:20:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your cites are unconvincing, if this is your intention. I still see you as a fist-shaker with extreme personal dislike and disdain for the President. Even if I was to concede that NOW he’s popular(he’s not, just slightly more than he was before), he’s been underwater for most of his Presidency and the Republicans have paid zero price for opposing him other than failing to win the White House. > [@](#): > > You represent something close to a majority position from a certain poll last summer. That’s not necessarily the public at large today. It’s possible, but in the absence of a new poll on the subject it’s the last one we have. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t – lots of people can believe in crankery. When something is a majority position, one at least has to approach debate with that in mind. “You’re all morons and I discount your belief” doesn’t actually fight ignorance. Cranks holding minority positiions you can get away with that. When you’re addressing a majority position that way it just makes you look out of touch with reality. > [@](#): > > Again, you’re unable to actually talk about him without your bias showing through in spades. My bias is out in front and fully disclosed. Yours is not, although it’s very easy to see it given how lame some of your arguments defending him get. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/523 "2015-01-20T20:22:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 44% is not moderately popular. He is trending upwards, or at least he was. He peaked at 45% but seems to have levelled off since the Paris kerfuffle. The Paris kerfuffle being when the RW media told you what to be angry about. Empty people grumbling on command. That’s you and your ilk. Beats having to think, I guess. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/524 "2015-01-20T20:23:31Z")
The right can’t bring down the President’s approval. If it goes down, it’s because of liberals and independents. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/525 "2015-01-20T20:25:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 44% is not moderately popular. He is trending upwards, or at least he was. He peaked at 45% but seems to have levelled off since the Paris kerfuffle. Are you kidding? He’s at 50% in at least [one poll](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/01/19/obamas-approval-rating-bump-by-the-numbers/). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/526 "2015-01-20T20:29:57Z")
The average is what matters. His lowest is 37%(just as implausible as 50%), and the median and mean seems to be around 45. I do like your cite though, love polling breakdowns. It’s good to see where he’s gaining. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/527 "2015-01-20T20:31:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Even if I was to concede that NOW he’s popular(he’s not, just slightly more than he was before), he’s been underwater for most of his Presidency and the Republicans have paid zero price for opposing him other than failing to win the White House. Yes, other than the _only significant opportunity for the public to actually refute the President_, they’ve been somewhat successful. If you ignore that _Obama kicked their butt_ when they actually ran against him. > [@](#): > > It’s possible, but in the absence of a new poll on the subject it’s the last one we have. We have plenty of new polls, even if they don’t ask the exact same questions. > [@](#): > > When something is a majority position, one at least has to approach debate with that in mind. “You’re all morons and I discount your belief” doesn’t actually fight ignorance. Cranks holding minority positiions you can get away with that. When you’re addressing a majority position that way it just makes you look out of touch with reality. Your position isn’t the majority position. Even when expressing disapproval, I’ve seen no sign of the _personal_ hatred of the President that you constantly demonstrate. > [@](#): > > My bias is out in front and fully disclosed. Yours is not, although it’s very easy to see it given how lame some of your arguments defending him get. Huh? I’ve admitted many times that I support Obama, even as I disagree with him and criticize him sometimes. My feelings for him aren’t personal, unlike yours. Something about him rubs you the wrong way, and you can’t get over it. It bleeds into every post. “the guy”… “liar”… “incompetent”… “pissant bullshit”… just personal hatred. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/528 "2015-01-20T20:44:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, other than the _only significant opportunity for the public to actually refute the President_, they’ve been somewhat successful. If you ignore that _Obama kicked their butt_ when they actually ran against him. Weren’t every single one of his policies on the ballot in this past election?😃 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/529 "2015-01-20T20:49:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Weren’t every single one of his policies on the ballot in this past election?😃 No. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/530 "2015-01-20T20:49:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You are so out to lunch. What I’m saying is conventional wisdom these days. Get over it, you’re a dead ender. Gee, Professor Wikipedia, what’s “conventional wisdom”? > [@](#): > > Conventional wisdom is not necessarily true. Conventional wisdom is additionally often seen as an obstacle to the acceptance of newly acquired information, to introducing new theories and explanations, and therefore operates as an obstacle that must be overcome by legitimate revisionism. This is to say, that despite new information to the contrary, conventional wisdom has a property analogous to inertia that opposes the introduction of contrary belief, sometimes to the point of absurd denial of the new information set by persons strongly holding an outdated (conventional) view. This inertia is due to conventional wisdom being made of ideas that are convenient, appealing and deeply assumed by the public, who hangs on to them even as they grow outdated. Golly! I guess **adaher** really is an expert on conventional wisdom! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/531 "2015-01-20T22:00:18Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Ah yes, but did the British arrange for the world’s leading luminaries to hold hands and perform a “follow the yellow brick road” trot down a closed street in a show of heartfelt, spontaneous solidarity with the cameras? Because that evidently makes all the difference. Ah, we should have got some marching in. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/532 "2015-01-20T22:02:19Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Gee, Professor Wikipedia, what’s “conventional wisdom”? > > Golly! I guess **adaher** really is an expert on conventional wisdom! Okay. Where is the new information that the President is competent and honest? On the contrary, up until 2013, the conventional wisdom was that he WAS competent and honest. Public opinion changed in the face of evidence. SDMB opinion on the other hand, remained unmoved. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/533 "2015-01-20T22:05:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Okay. Where is the new information that the President is competent and honest? According to Politifact, he’s one of the most honest politicians they’ve ever tracked. Seriously – compare his Politifact record to anyone else with a high number of items tracked. > [@](#): > > On the contrary, up until 2013, the conventional wisdom was that he WAS competent and honest. Public opinion changed in the face of evidence. You’ve shown some old poll snapshots. That’s not evidence of either the conventional wisdom at the time or a change in public opinion “in the face of evidence”. > [@](#): > > SDMB opinion on the other hand, remained unmoved. How could our opinions be moved by posts that drip with such obvious personal hatred for the President? Someone who is repeatedly fooled by birthers and misunderstands his own cites? You have no credibility on Obama. Nothing you post about him can be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/534 "2015-01-20T22:16:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Face it. […] he’s incompetent. I wanted to zero in on this particular position of yours. Cribbing from a talk-show host, I’ll remind you that Mitt Romney, as part of his 2012 run for president, said he’d get GDP growth to 5% by 2016. Paul Ryan said he’d get unemployment to 6% by 2016. Newt Gingrich said gas would be below $2.50 by 2016. This was, presumably, what they considered to be an achievable timeline for a campaign promise. Obama achieved or surpasses all of these goals before 2015. Assuming Romney, Ryan, and Gingrich would have gotten the credit for achieving these accomplishments (and ignoring the fact that the president largely cannot affect the price of gas to any huge degree), wouldn’t you say this is in fact evidence of a remarkably **competent** president? In an area where you have previously shown great passion and concern, isn’t Obama’s masterful handling of economic issues at all troubling when you try to reconcile them with your inherent dislike for the man? By the metric of “what republican candidates thought was possible by 2016,” can you at least admit that Obama has radically outperformed their expectations for their own abilities? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/535 "2015-01-20T22:23:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Were there marches involving 40 world leaders? There was a memorial service, attended by a large number of world political types as I recall. I’ll try to find a link. Then of course there was the memorial service for the 190 people killed in the Madrid bombings. Bush didn’t make that one either. So, is it the marching that’s the critical factor here for why Obama let everyone down? It’s ok to skip it if it’s a sit down event, but essential if you’re walking? I’m rather curious. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/536 "2015-01-20T22:25:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How could our opinions be moved by posts that drip with such obvious personal hatred for the President? No one on this message board has an obvious personal hatred for President G.W. Bush? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/537 "2015-01-20T22:27:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one on this message board has an obvious personal hatred for President G.W. Bush? I sincerely doubt that. I imagine some non-zero number of Dopers hate GWB. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/538 "2015-01-20T22:34:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I sincerely doubt that. I imagine some non-zero number of Dopers hate GWB. Why do you ask? It seems that your concern about Presidential “haters” is limited to only one side of the aisle. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/539 "2015-01-20T22:43:04Z")
This is a Reeder-like obsession for Adaher, and everyone got tired of Reeder’s Bush obsession. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597/540 "2015-01-20T22:45:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It seems that your concern about Presidential “haters” is limited to only one side of the aisle. Huh? I’m criticizing **adaher** and his posts in this thread. What does Bush have to do with that? Do I need to put “and hating Bush can taint one’s post” at the end of every post? I won’t do that, but you can add it if you like in your mind, if it makes you feel any better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-barack-obama-to-stand-for-democracy/709597.md?page=28)