# Where was Grandpa born? (Austro-Hungarian Query) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 1, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110 "2010-11-01T18:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/21 "2010-11-02T13:54:46Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Oddly, I have relatives with the name Stern who are, nevertheless, Hungarians. At least, they speak Hungarian, not German, and they don’t have any relatives who speak anything other than Hungarian. Sure. I know Hungarians with Germanic last names, too. Eventually down the male lineage, though, there’s an Austrian or German in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/22 "2010-11-02T14:01:48Z")
I got a response from my friend: > [@](#): > > szia, > > some of it I cannot read, it’s either how it was scanned in, or the original I guess is not in perfect condition:) > > So it is a birth certificate for a boy child named József, who was born on March 6, 1918. The certificate was issued on March 14 in Sopron. His father is David, who was 43 years old when József was born and his mother, Sarolta, whose age I cannot read and who is Austrian. The very right column is for “Notes and Signatures” and if I can make it out correctly, there is a note that the father wed an Austrian citizen, who is from Bécs County in Lower Austria, stating the address (Rembrandt street) again. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/23 "2010-11-02T15:32:31Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > I too have ancestors from the Austrian Hungarian empire and being born in the Hungarian side doesn’t mean he is Hungarian. Within the Austrian Hungarian Empire there were Polish people, Hungarians, Romanians, Roma, Moldavian, Ukrainian, Jewish, Czechs, Slovaks, Germans and Austrian people. It was a very culturally diverse region and as Freddy the Pig stated, many people where stranded in a region which became another nation. I remember thinking when I read a book by the Austrian children’s books writer [Christine Nöstlinger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_N%C3%B6stlinger) and saw the diversity of different language names that Vienna must be some kind of a nationality melting pot. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/24 "2010-11-02T16:21:50Z")
[This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) show the interior structure of Austria-Hungary prior to World War I. Note that Slovenia, Bisbua and Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, and significant amounts of Italy and Poland were in “Austria”, while Croatia and Slavonia was a Hungarian Crown Land. [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) shows what Hungary lost to Romania, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and other neighboring states. Sopron is notable in westrnmost Hungary on it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/25 "2010-11-02T16:47:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I got a response from my friend: I should also note that “Bécs” is the Hungarian name for Vienna/Wien. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/26 "2010-11-02T17:09:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) show_s_ the interior structure of Austria-Hungary prior to World War I. Note that Slovenia, [del]Bisbua[/del] Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, and significant amounts of Italy and Poland were in “Austria”, while Croatia and Slavonia was a Hungarian Crown Land. [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) shows what Hungary lost to Romania, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and other neighboring states. Sopron is notable in west_e_rnmost Hungary on it. Reposted map links owing to horrendous typoes that escaped my proofing. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/27 "2010-11-02T17:13:01Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) show the interior structure of Austria-Hungary prior to World War I. Note that Slovenia, Bisbua and Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, and significant amounts of Italy and Poland were in “Austria”, while Croatia and Slavonia was a Hungarian Crown Land. [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) shows what Hungary lost to Romania, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and other neighboring states. Sopron is notable in westrnmost Hungary on it. It looks to me that on March 8, 1918, when the OP’s grandfather was born, the Austro-Hungarian empire had not yet dissolved, and Sopron was part of the Kingdom of Hungary, so far as I can tell. [Wikipedia states](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopron) that > [@](#): > > Following the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, ethnic Germans inhabited parts of four western Hungarian counties: Pozsony (Pressburg in German; Bratislava in Czech/Slovak), Vas (Eisenburg), Sopron (Ödenburg) and Moson (Wieselburg). These counties were initially awarded to Austria in the Treaty of Saint Germain (1919). After local unrest, Sopron’s status as part of Hungary (along with that of the surrounding eight villages) was decided by a local plebiscite held on December 14, 1921, with 65% voting for Hungary. Since then Sopron has been called Civitas Fidelissima (“The Most Loyal Town”, Hungarian: A Leghűségesebb Város), and the anniversary of the plebiscite is a city holiday. However, the western parts of Vas, Sopron and Moson counties did join Austria and today forms the Austrian federal state of Burgenland, while Pressburg/Pozsony was awarded to Czechoslovakia. The Treaty of St. Germain was signed on Sept 10, 1919. So it looks like the town of Sopron was only technically part of Austria from Sept 10, 1919 to Dec 14, 1921. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/28 "2010-11-02T18:04:36Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure. I know Hungarians with Germanic last names, too. Eventually down the male lineage, though, there’s an Austrian or German in there somewhere. I’m sure you’re right. I wonder how far back that is. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/29 "2010-11-02T18:13:53Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I’m sure you’re right. I wonder how far back that is. Actually, now that I think of it, it’s a Jewish name, too. But Ashkenazi Jews, so far as I understand, did originate along the Rhine. So it depends on how you want to define these terms. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/30 "2010-11-02T18:20:44Z")
I’d just like to thank everyone who’s posted here. Mrs Piper’s family is ethnic German, from Hungary. They emigrated to Canada in the 1920’s. This has been very informative. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/31 "2010-11-02T18:22:03Z")
An now that I look at the birth certificate again, the religion (_vallása_) column makes sense (rather, I can decipher the writing after reminding myself of the Jewish origin of Stern.) It has “izr” for the father and the mother, indicating _izraelita vallás_, or “Israeli religion” aka Judaism. I was expecting something like _zsidó_ or _judaizmus_ in that column, but checking out the Hungarian wikipedia entry on Judaism, it also goes by _izraelita vallás._ ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/32 "2010-11-02T19:49:54Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure. I know Hungarians with Germanic last names, too. Eventually down the male lineage, though, there’s an Austrian or German in there somewhere. This Hungarian racecar driver, [Zsolt Baumgartner](http://www.zsolt.baumgartner.hu/), (German last name) is an absolute dead-ringer for what my dad looked like in his 20s, and to a less extent me as well. I’m pretty certain we’re related somehow. Spooky! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/33 "2010-11-02T20:26:30Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I should also note that “Bécs” is the Hungarian name for Vienna/Wien. Are these two words cognates of each other, or was the Hungarian name developed independently? > [@Polycarp](#): > > [This map](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/austhung.htm) show the interior structure of Austria-Hungary prior to World War I. Note that Slovenia, [Bosnia] and Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, and significant amounts of Italy and Poland were in “Austria”, while Croatia and Slavonia was a Hungarian Crown Land. My understanding is that Bosnia and Herzegovina wasn’t part of Austria, but was rather administered jointly by Austria and Hungary. [This Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_%28Austro-Hungarian_condominium%29) seems to agree. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/34 "2010-11-02T20:42:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It has “izr” for the father and the mother, indicating _izraelita vallás_, or “Israeli religion” aka Judaism. I was expecting something like _zsidó_ or _judaizmus_ in that column, but checking out the Hungarian wikipedia entry on Judaism, it also goes by _izraelita vallás._ Is [“Vallas”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Vallas) a Hungarian surname (maybe akin to English surnames such as “Kirke”, “Church”, “Priest”, or “Parsons”)? I had always assumed “Vallas” was a Greek surname due to the “-as” ending. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110/35 "2010-11-02T21:05:14Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Is [“Vallas”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Vallas) a Hungarian surname (maybe akin to English surnames such as “Kirke”, “Church”, “Priest”, or “Parsons”)? I had always assumed “Vallas” was a Greek surname due to the “-as” ending. It means “religion.” I don’t know of it as being a surname in Hungarian, and Googling “Vallás” followed by the most common Hungarian forenames I could think of yielded no results, so I suspect not. ETA: Paul Vallas is listed as [a Greek-American](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_Americans) here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-was-grandpa-born-austro-hungarian-query/559110.md?page=1)