# Where will Bush start a war first? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566 "2001-01-17T20:59:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/121 "2001-09-18T19:21:21Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by curious george_ > > \*\*Look at the posts on this thread from January to March. It’s full of people who correctly predicted Bush would soon involve the USA in a war, probably with terrorists or Mid-eastern countries. > > \*\*\*Originally posted by pldennison \* > Except he didn’t. The United States was attacked by terrorists, and the United States is responding. If you have evidence that this was George Bush’s doing, please post it, otherwise please retract this statement. > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by curious george_\*\* > > We all expected it. Bush=war. Gore=peace. > > \*\* To back up **pldennison** , a war as we understand it looks unlikely. If Bush was such a mindless hawk, don’t you, **curious george** , think that military retaliation would already have commenced? Would Bush work to meticulously arrange an international block of support for an initiative against terrorism? **Curious george** , why don’t you wait to complain about Bush getting us into war until when and if it actually happens? Or do you think that going to an internationally-decried war is a forgone conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/122 "2001-09-18T19:27:27Z")
**rjung** , since my comments were specifically and obviously directed at **curious george** and no one else, I’m _almost_ curious regarding under what circumstances you _would_ find it necessary to “dignify” them with comment? Alas, however, I am not **that** curious. But rest assured – the day that I develop enough respect for you that I feel I need your evaluation of my posts, I will seek it quickly and without reservation. **gobear** , between voting for Gore and wanting my children, that changes everything I thought I knew about you!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/123 "2001-09-18T19:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > but I don’t let my personal antipathy for Dubya make me willing to call him a traitor who collaborated in the slaughter of 5,000 of his fellow citizens for politcal gain. > That charge is monstrous, and anyone who has said that should retract it immediately. I didn’t say that. To see what I said on 9-17, go to page 2. pld replied by saying that I said that, and how shocked he was by that. Then, I said that political and military leaders do start wars for personal gain, so he shouldn’t be shocked by that idea. However, I never said that GW is “a traitor who collaborated in the slaughter of 5,000 of his fellow citizens for politcal gain”. PLD was twisting my words and mixing this thread up with my other thread about the CIA. > [@](#): > > If you can prove that Bush knew about or abetted the WTC and Pentagon attacks, show evidence or shut up. > > If you prove that Bush has drafted secret orders to restrict civil rights, show evidence or shut up. I believe GQ is the only forum on this board where factual evidence is needed for discussion. I can’t prove anything about this topic, of course. I don’t need to prove anything. What do you think this is, a court of law? Regarding your secret orders gripe, I never said anything about that. That’s another poster. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/124 "2001-09-18T19:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > I believe GQ is the only forum on this board where factual evidence is needed for discussion. One of these days, my face is going to freeze in this position, but it’s just so damn appropriate: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/125 "2001-09-18T20:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > > Or should I say, [Bricker’s] efforts to silence my freedom of speech represent > > conservatives as well as Hitler represents Germans?] > > What efforts might those be? I see that you are free to continue typing. I CAN type, but I am certainly being derided, personally attacked, and verbally lynched for doing so. When people such as PLD don’t like what people write here, they attack them in this manner to make them stop writing more. They only like ideas that match their own, and can’t tolerate other ideas > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > Please explain in what sense Bush is trigger-happy. He campaigned on quasi-isolationist policy and staed explicitly his desire to stay out of any conflicts. And now, a > full week after the worst sneak attack in the nations history he has done **NOTHING!** But to you, that makes him trigger happy. > > The infantilism of your thought amazes me. > > The depth of your partisanship sickens me. Bush has done NOTHING?! He has: -declared war against terrorists, and all nations that host them. -called up the reservists. -gotten approval from congress for war powers and special funds. -made quotes like “they will feel our wrath” and “it’s going to be a long war”. -sent troops to Pakistan He has done everything but start the bombing. It appears as if he is putting the USA on the verge of a very long, costly war. As far as his campaign goes, he has been asking for an increase in military spending and missile defense for a long time. He is a hawk, not interested in peaceful solutions to conflicts and attacks like the 9/11 bombing. The infantilism of your thought amazes me. The depth of your partisanship sickens me. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/126 "2001-09-18T20:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > **I believe GQ is the only forum on this board where factual evidence is needed for discussion. I can’t prove anything about this topic, of course. I don’t need to prove anything. What do you think this is, a court of law?** You don’t have to prove anything? Fine by me, but who’s going to buy what you’re selling? ANd if you don’t care is anyone buys it, why are you even making a post in Great Debates? IMHO, you are very close to trolling. So we can post anything we want in GD with no backup? Awesome! \ **Democrats Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Gary Condit got together and ordered terrorist cells to hijack U.S. planes and destroy the WTC! The two-pronged goal was to make George W. Bush look bad and to get the press off of Condit’s back.** Hey – I don’t have to prove that, right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/127 "2001-09-18T20:06:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > I believe GQ is the only forum on this board where factual evidence is needed for discussion. I can’t prove anything about this topic, of course. I don’t need to prove anything. What do you think this is, a court of law? Ironically, in stating such, curious george _did_ prove something- namely, that he need not be taken seriously in GD again. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/128 "2001-09-18T20:08:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > **I CAN type, but I am certainly being derided, personally attacked, and verbally lynched for doing so. When people such as PLD don’t like what people write here, > they attack them in this manner to make them stop writing more.** ??? That’s not an impingement on “freedom of speech”! Mere insults from strangers? And a very few of those? Geez, man – come up with better arguments or grow a thicker skin. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/129 "2001-09-18T20:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > -sent troops to Pakistan Asking for a cite would be useless, right? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/130 "2001-09-18T20:17:45Z")
To say > [@](#): > > The fact is, history is full of military and political leaders who have used war to bolster their careers, and have enjoyed doing so. is not denying the idea of Bush abetting the WTC destruction. > [@](#): > > When people such as PLD don’t like what people write here, > they attack them in this manner to make them stop writing more. They only like ideas that match their own, and can’t tolerate other ideas How can **PLD** stop you from writing more? I mean, I like him and all, but nobody’s prose is that good! > [@](#): > > I fail to understand your POV, **Curious George**. > Bush has done NOTHING?! He has: > -declared war against terrorists, and all nations that host them. Correction, war was declared on us, Bush is responding. > [@](#): > > -called up the reservists. > -gotten approval from congress for war powers and special funds. > -made quotes like “they will feel our wrath” and “it’s > going to be a long war”. A. Calling up the reservists is a sensible measure B. The War Powers Act of 1975 is all the legal justification Bush requires. C.What’s wrong with vowing revenge on terrorists? **Five thousand people are dead in New York and Arlington**. Don’t you think that merits a little rhetoric? d. Pakistan is next to where the terrorists are. Where should we send troops, France? > [@](#): > > He is a hawk, not interested in peaceful solutions to conflicts and attacks like the 9/11 bombing. And how, pray, should we solve the murder of thousands of innocent Americans peacefully: “We surrender?” If my eyes roll much more, they’ll fall out. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/131 "2001-09-18T20:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by curious george \* > The depth of your partisanship sickens me. I’m done with you, George. I will only notify you that like most of the people opposing you, I am not being partisan. I am not a Republican. I did not vote for GWB. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/132 "2001-09-19T00:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Which of these 25 executive orders, _specifically_, do you contend involves official secrets? > \*\* I admit the term executive order was incorrect, that term applies more to the war doctrines, I’ll get to that in a minute. However, the result will be the same. In his role as Chief Legislator, Bush is pushing an Official Secrets Act through the Senate Intelligence Committee. You can read about this in the NYTimes, but alas it is now in their paid archive. I’m not paying $2.95 for an article I’ve already read. Here is the cite, if you want to search it yourself: August 22, 2001, Wednesday Keeping Secrets at Too High a Price By Thomas S. Blanton Source: The New York Times In addition, Bush is changing government policies, not by executive order, but by secret changes in doctrine. You might be interested in this: [http://www.bushwatch.net/rma.htm](http://www.bushwatch.net/rma.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/133 "2001-09-19T02:54:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chas.E \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > > \*\*Which of these 25 executive orders, _specifically_, do you contend involves official secrets? > > \*\* > > I admit the term executive order was incorrect, that term applies more to the war doctrines, I’ll get to that in a minute. However, the result will be the same. In his role as Chief Legislator, Bush is pushing an Official Secrets Act through the Senate Intelligence Committee. You can read about this in the NYTimes, but alas it is now in their paid archive. I’m not paying $2.95 for an article I’ve already read. Here is the cite, if you want to search it yourself: > > August 22, 2001, Wednesday > Keeping Secrets at Too High a Price > By Thomas S. Blanton > Source: The New York Times > > In addition, Bush is changing government policies, not by executive order, but by secret changes in doctrine. You might be interested in this: > [http://www.bushwatch.net/rma.htm](http://www.bushwatch.net/rma.htm) \*\* Ah ha. Well, here’s what the cited NY Times article says: > [@](#): > > Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, the principal sponsor, has scheduled a perfunctory hearing on Sept. 5; after that he wants to begin pushing a bill through the committee that would criminalize the unauthorized disclosure of any type of classified information by federal employees. It is unclear whether Bob Graham of Florida, the committee chairman and a supporter of last year’s bill, intends to slow Mr. Shelby down. It does seem clear, however, that President Bush would be unlikely to veto such a measure. > [@](#): > > Supporters of the proposal also bristle at the appellation ‘‘official secrets act’’ and try to draw a contrast with the British law of that name, which allows the prosecution of journalists who publish secrets. They say the proposal could not be used to prosecute journalists, especially in light of current Justice Department guidelines that prevent such action. But when the government prosecutes employees who leak information, who will be called, under penalty of perjury, as the only witnesses to the crime? Journalists. Where will they find the evidence of the crime? In the press. Since you say you didn’t mean actual Executive Orders, I now ask you for evidence that Bush is pushing this act through the committee. I point out that Bush is not a Chief Legislator; he’s not even a Junior Assistant Legislator. He can neither propose nor vote for legislation. But certainly he can ask Congress for it. Has he, in this case? The article you offered as evidence doesn’t mention it. In fact, the only mention of President Bush in that article is in the one line I quote above - that he is “unlikely to veto [it].” So again - _specifically_ - what evidence do you have that Bush is specifically pushing this legislation? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/134 "2001-09-19T03:36:38Z")
And since you’re apparently either too lazy to look it up, **Chas** , or perhaps too embarrassed to admit how foolish your previous assertion was, the correct answer is “two years old.” A carpetbagger, indeed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/135 "2001-09-19T04:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **I point out that Bush is not a Chief Legislator; he’s not even a Junior Assistant Legislator. He can neither propose nor vote for legislation.** You must have been sleeping in Civics class. The President has three roles, Chief Executive, Commander in Chief, and Chief Legislator. The President can propose legislation, in fact, he is required to submit at least one bill annually: the Federal Budget bill. The Chief Legislator has exactly one vote on every bill. He either signs the bill, or vetos it. I read hundreds of Bush-related articles a week, I am hunting for the cite for Bush’s pushing the bill. I haven’t found it yet. I’ll hunt more tonight. Yes minty, I looked it up. It’s kinda like California, everyone who has lived there more than 5 years claims they’re a native. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/136 "2001-09-19T04:14:44Z")
Except you didn’t claim he was passing himself off as a native Texan, **Chas**. Instead, you claimed that he was faking his Texas accent for the sake of getting elected governor, as well as putting on a home-spun Texas persona. Why don’t you just admit you didn’t know what you were talking about? You know, just for a refreshing change in your M.O.? ---
**Author:** ![kgriffey79](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@kgriffey79](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kgriffey79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/137 "2001-09-19T04:45:23Z")
I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE ACCUSING BUSH OF STARTING A WAR. THE FUCKING TERRORISTS STARTED THIS YOU DUMBFUCKS. YOU BLAME OUR PRESIDENT, WELL FUCK YOU. I HEARD A LADY SAY THAT SHE THINKS BUSH ORDERED THE PLANES HIJACKED AND FLOWN INTO THOSE BUILDINGS TO GET US INTO A WAR. I SAY FUCK HER AND FUCK ALL OF YOU FO SPREADING YOUR LIES. FUCKERS. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/138 "2001-09-19T04:48:19Z")
Wrong forum, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/139 "2001-09-19T04:58:46Z")
[Moderator/Translator Hat ON] kgriffey, I AM SPEAKING IN YOUR NATIVE MANNER IN THE HOPES THAT YOU WILL COMPREHEND IT MORE EASILY. THIS IS NOT THE PIT. DO NOT TELL PEOPLE “FUCK YOU” OR CALL THEM FUCKERS HERE. THANK YOU. [Moderator/Translator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566/140 "2001-09-19T05:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > **Except you didn’t claim he was passing himself off as a native Texan, Chas. Instead, you claimed that he was faking his Texas accent for the sake of getting elected governor, as well as putting on a home-spun Texas persona.** I never said he put on a fake texas accent for the Texas election, that never would have worked. I said (perhaps unclearly) that he used the fake Texan accent for the presidential election. Just like he used his awful Spanish to try to impress the Latino voters. I guess some people are easily duped… But it is more than obvious that Bush jr. has been downplaying his Ivy League heritage even as far back as the Texas Gov election. Listen carefully when he speaks without a script. Sometimes he lays on the fake Texan accent thickly when he thinks his words will end up on TV, sometimes it is almost absent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-bush-start-a-war-first/50566.md?page=8)