# Where will the water come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611 "2008-12-10T21:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/21 "2008-12-11T08:05:05Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > \*Vegetarians like to claim that meat is much less “efficient” than grains. This is true and false. It takes more land to raise beef, but you usually find that the land can’t be used for grain or vegatable crops anyhow. Herding is alsoless damaging to the environment than farming. Eh? You know, few cattle nowadays **live** on what grows in their pastures. They get fodder from **farms.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/22 "2008-12-11T08:06:10Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > And a MAJOR use of the water we are wasting is growing corn, to make into ethanol-which INCREASES our imports of oil! > Thank you,USDOE!:smack: There are downsides to ethanol, but how does it increase our imports of oil? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/23 "2008-12-11T08:08:01Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The notion of “sustainable development” is a contradiction. There is no such thing. > > We cannot individually and indefinitely continue to use less and less resources. There is only one answer and that is to stop population growth. Not quite. [There is another.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262764) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/24 "2008-12-11T08:41:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There are downsides to ethanol, but how does it increase our imports of oil? Here’s how: -corn needs fertilizers and water (fertilizer uses natural gas to produce, diesel fuel to transport to farms) -corn needs diesel fuel to harvest -ethanol must be distilled (use naural gas or oil to fire stills) -plus, you are producing a substance that has only 67% of the energy content of gasoline! But who cares-the farm lobby is happy! ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/25 "2008-12-11T10:45:12Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Here’s how: > -corn needs fertilizers and water (fertilizer uses natural gas to produce, diesel fuel to transport to farms) > -corn needs diesel fuel to harvest > -ethanol must be distilled (use naural gas or oil to fire stills) > -plus, you are producing a substance that has only 67% of the energy content of gasoline! > But who cares-the farm lobby is happy! This is nonsense. The diesel to truck inputs (fertilizer) to the farm and run the tractors is trivial, and the natural gas used to distill the ethanol is not an oil product. Most analyses has shown that even adding up all the fossil fuel inputs yields a positive energy balance for ethanol. I don’t think anyone seriously suggests that considering only the petroleum inputs gives us a negative energy balance. I know it’s trendy these days to bash the ethanol program, but can we try to at least come up with arguments that make a little tiny bit of sense? ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/26 "2008-12-11T11:30:01Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > This is nonsense. The diesel to truck inputs (fertilizer) to the farm and run the tractors is trivial, and the natural gas used to distill the ethanol is not an oil product. Most analyses has shown that even adding up all the fossil fuel inputs yields a positive energy balance for ethanol. I don’t think anyone seriously suggests that considering only the petroleum inputs gives us a negative energy balance. > > I know it’s trendy these days to bash the ethanol program, but can we try to at least come up with arguments that make a little tiny bit of sense? I’m simply an interested reader here, but will ask the inevitable; have any cites? ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/27 "2008-12-11T13:37:30Z")
Things like grey water toilets address domestic use, which is responsible for about 10% of fresh water use according to a cite above. Desalination is a solution for areas close to a coastline, but how do you move it inland? Keep in mind that that means uphill and in the quantities that we are talking about, is a huge engineering challenge. I don’t have any idea what the costs are, but I know its big. The bulk of corn is grown for eating (although not as corn-on-the-cob), btw. Also, most ethanol is produced to supplant MTBE and not as a substitute for gasoline. That is all I want to say about ethanol, since I came to talk about water. Thanks for your help, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/28 "2008-12-11T15:03:59Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The notion of “sustainable development” is a contradiction. There is no such thing. > > We cannot individually and indefinitely continue to use less and less resources. There is only one answer and that is to stop population growth. Everything else is a patch and trying to ignore and delay the inevitable. We need to get to zero population growth PDQ. Agree completely. My personal opinion is that we’re pretty much, as a species, screwed. The richest of the world need to drastically (as in, orders of magnitude) reduce their standard of living, or a lot of people need to die. That being said, if things get dire enough, developed nations would be perfectly capable of rerouting rivers, damming up new reservoirs, and beginning nuclear-powered desalination with nuclear-powered pumps sending the hydrogen oxide inland. Would it be a ridiculous engineering challenge? Sure - but transcontinental oil pipelines are proof of concept, the problem is merely of scale and cost. Starving is an excellent motivator, as is the money to be had should fresh water truly begin to dwindle. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/29 "2008-12-11T15:16:20Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > I was recently in Nebraska for two weeks on business. I was struck by the endless corn fields in eastern Nebraska, as you move west it transitions into cattle and irrigated crops. I don’t remember the town name but as I continued driving west it was almost all ranches and feed lots. > > I 'm sure that they know a hell of a lot more about growing crops and raising cattle then the majority of SDMB posters. > > In short, I think when corn and other crops are no longer viable in a certain area they tend to adapt. My family and relatives own farmland in Nebraska (and Kansas and Colorado), and grow corn. (Hastings - Juniata area). Water usage is not a consideration in which crops to grow. Changes because of the reduced aquifer level in costs, usage availability, etc. have been negligable thus far. All of my relatives are _aware_ of it, of course. But the fact is that no one is willing to sacrifice on their own usage and cost when no one else is doing so. Basically, corn will continue to be grown despite the detriment to aquifer levels, until it reaches a crisis point that _forces_ action. Somewhat like anthropogenic climate change, actually. I understand there are similar water usage issues further west, such as the Colorado River and in Cali, where with no plan for the future in place the current (unsustainable) usages are continuing apace. In short, do not rely on the farmers and ranchers to self-correct. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/30 "2008-12-11T15:28:34Z")
[QUOTE=Interconnected Series of Tubes;10558335That being said, if things get dire enough, developed nations would be perfectly capable of rerouting rivers, damming up new reservoirs, and beginning nuclear-powered desalination with nuclear-powered pumps sending the hydrogen oxide inland. Would it be a ridiculous engineering challenge? Sure - but transcontinental oil pipelines are proof of concept, the problem is merely of scale and cost. Starving is an excellent motivator, as is the money to be had should fresh water truly begin to dwindle.[/QUOTE] Rerouting rivers and damming up new reservoirs have their own issues. I also think that oil pipelines aren’t a proof of concept. First off, they aren’t that big compared to the volume of water we are talking about. Secondly, the oil is under pressure naturally and I believe the downstream end is downhill. We are talking about a lot of really big pumps and a lot of really big pipes that are strong enough to contain that pressure. I am not an engineer, so I don’t know how to calculate what would be needed. Will things like drip irrigation and drought-resistant crops be enough to deal with the problem? Thanks for your help, Rob ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/31 "2008-12-11T15:42:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Eh? You know, few cattle nowadays **live** on what grows in their pastures. They get fodder from **farms.** That is frequently true, depending on where you live. But farm-based fodder is also often secondary. It doesn’t deplete the soil and can be grown as a secondary crop. You don’t find many primary fodder farms. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/32 "2008-12-11T16:54:14Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > We cannot individually and indefinitely continue to use less and less resources. There is only one answer and that is to stop population growth. Everything else is a patch and trying to ignore and delay the inevitable. We need to get to zero population growth PDQ. I’m not sure I see how this applies to water. Every drop of water (to a reasonable approximation) that has ever existed on planet Earth, still exists. Converting used or salt water to fresh, potable water is merely a matter of money and engineering. The money and engineering talent result from people. Limiting the supply of people makes the problem worse. Furthermore, the US, like most western countries, already have essentially zero population growth. World population growth is mainly occurring in the 2nd and 3rd worlds, i.e. the poor and “minorities”. What you are suggesting is that we must stop blacks, hispanics, arabs, chinese, and indians from reproducing to achieve your goal. This is not a practical position and could be considered extremely racist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/33 "2008-12-11T17:17:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Eh? You know, few cattle nowadays **live** on what grows in their pastures. They get fodder from **farms.** No, most cattle raised for beef are grazed for most of their fairly short life, then send off to a feedlot for a couple of months to fatten up, where indeed they are served corn/soy/sorgum, etc. The cattle can gain half-again+ in wieght: > **[Feedlot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedlot)** > > A feedlot or feed yard is a type of animal feeding operation (AFO) which is used in intensive animal farming, notably beef cattle, but also swine, horses, sheep, turkeys, chickens or ducks, prior to slaughter. Large beef feedlots are called concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFO) in the United States and intensive livestock operations (ILOs) or confined feeding operations (CFO) in Canada. They may contain thousands of animals in an array of pens. > The basic purpose of the feedlot is to in... "\*Prior to entering a feedlot, cattle spend most of their life grazing on rangeland or on immature fields of grain such as green wheat pasture. Once cattle obtain an entry-level weight, about 650 pounds (300 kg), they are transferred to a feedlot to be fed a specialized diet which may be made up of hay, corn, sorghum, various other grains, by-products of food processing, such as sugar beet waste, molasses, soybean meal, or cottonseed meal, and minerals. In the American northwest and Canada, barley, low grade durum wheat, chick peas (garbanzo beans), oats and occasionally potatoes are used as feed. Feedlot diets are usually very dense in food energy, to encourage the deposition of fat, or marbling, in the animal’s muscles; Some consider this fat desirable as it leads to ‘juiciness’ in the resulting meat. The animal may gain an additional 400 pounds (180 kg) during its 3-4 months in the feedlot.\*" You _can_ skip the whole “feedlot” thing and raise perfectly edible beef, in fact that what’s most Argentinian beef is. Feedlot beef is much more tender, and there’s a difference in taste- most think one or the other is tastier, opinions differ. However, note that feed corn (also used for HFCS, alchohol, etc) gets about 10X the yeild in corn than sweet corn. It’s a far different product, you would \*not \*want to eat feed corn on the cob.Tough and tasteless. Not to mention, a good amount of fodder is what would be waste from human food, such as the stems and leaves from corn. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/34 "2008-12-11T17:30:28Z")
> [@flex727](#): > > I’m not sure I see how this applies to water. Every drop of water (to a reasonable approximation) that has ever existed on planet Earth, still exists. Converting used or salt water to fresh, potable water is merely a matter of money and engineering. > > The money and engineering talent result from people. Limiting the supply of people makes the problem worse. > > Furthermore, the US, like most western countries, already have essentially zero population growth. World population growth is mainly occurring in the 2nd and 3rd worlds, i.e. the poor and “minorities”. What you are suggesting is that we must stop blacks, hispanics, arabs, chinese, and indians from reproducing to achieve your goal. This is not a practical position and could be considered extremely racist. All of this makes no sense whatsoever. Plus it contains the ridiculous notion that the USA has zero population growth. > [@](#): > > [Demographic history of the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States) > Historical populations > -Year - Population - > 1950 151,325,798 > 1960 179,323,175 > 1970 203,211,926 > 1980 226,545,805 > 1990 248,709,873 > 2000 281,421,906 > 2010 309,162,581 > 2020 336,031,546 > 2030 363,811,435 > 2040 392,172,658 > 2050 420,080,587 > 2060 450,505,985 > 2070 480,568,004 > 2080 511,442,859 > 2090 540,405,985 > 2100 571,440,474 ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/35 "2008-12-11T18:02:54Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > All of this makes no sense whatsoever. > Plus it contains the ridiculous notion that the USA has zero population growth. I was under the impression that the majority of the population increases are due to immigration - a zero sum game when compared to the semi-automatic machine uteruses standard issue in less developed nations. If anything denser populations make the delivery of water, say, purloined from the ocean or nearby mountain rain shadow (Portland, OR gets its water from one of these) even easier. To be honest I hadn’t given the pressure required to pump water over a mountain range that much thought. Generally I was imagining a few lift pump stations lifting the stuff of life over the shallowest passes. Once you’re there it’s all downhill to the central farming regions. Particularly since they’re sinking. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/36 "2008-12-11T18:05:16Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > All of this makes no sense whatsoever. > Plus it contains the ridiculous notion that the USA has zero population growth. Umm, ever hear of immigration? The USA has a fairly low actual growth rate: > **[List of countries by population growth rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate)** > > This article includes a table of annual population growth rate for countries and subnational areas. > The table below shows annual population growth rate history and projections for various areas, countries, regions and sub-regions from various sources for various time periods. > The right-most column shows a projection for the time period shown using the medium fertility variant. Preceding columns show actual history. The number shown is the average annual growth rate for the period. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/37 "2008-12-11T18:41:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, ever hear of immigration? > > The USA has a fairly low actual growth rate: > [List of countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate) You know, sometimes I get responses which are so surreal, which make so little sense, that I begin to understand the sorry state of the world today. This is one of those ocassions. flex727 said > [@](#): > > Furthermore, the US, like most western countries, already have essentially zero population growth. To which I responded with a cite showing this is far from true. And you respond **“Umm, ever hear of immigration?”** What’s that gotta do with anything? Were talking population growth, not fertility rate. And then you go and supply a cite which supports what I said and contradicts you. The population growth rate given there for the USA results in doubling of the population every 70 years. Or maybe immigrants are of a special race which consumes no resources, no water. They don’t eat or drink or bathe or drive. this is just stupidly surreal. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/38 "2008-12-11T18:52:11Z")
I thought this article from [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) was relevant: [Drought parches much of the U.S., may get worse - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/12/11/drought.problem/index.html) Also, I suppose if water became a desperate enough commodity, instead of pumping water from a desalination plant through a massive pipeline, it could be trucked in tankers or sent on rail in huge containers. Expensive, but doable. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/39 "2008-12-11T19:05:31Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You know, sometimes I get responses which are so surreal, which make so little sense, that I begin to understand the sorry state of the world today. This is one of those ocassions. > > flex727 said To which I responded with a cite showing this is far from true. > > And you respond **“Umm, ever hear of immigration?”** What’s that gotta do with anything? Were talking population growth, not fertility rate. And then you go and supply a cite which supports what I said and contradicts you. The population growth rate given there for the USA results in doubling of the population every 70 years. > > Or maybe immigrants are of a special race which consumes no resources, no water. They don’t eat or drink or bathe or drive. > > this is just stupidly surreal. I understand what you’re saying, but the bottom line is that immigration does not increase the number of human beings on this planet. When talking population growth, in the sense that you’re saying, immigration should be excluded (or at least you could recognize that every person entering the US is a person leaving from somewhere else - thus net zero). ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611/40 "2008-12-11T19:19:10Z")
> [@flex727](#): > > I understand what you’re saying, but the bottom line is that immigration does not increase the number of human beings on this planet. When talking population growth, in the sense that you’re saying, immigration should be excluded (or at least you could recognize that every person entering the US is a person leaving from somewhere else - thus net zero). As I said, Surreal. Who brought up immigration or the USA? We’re talking globally. You bring up something irrelevant and wrong. I say the population of the world is growing. You say the population of the USA is not growing which is (a) irrelevant and (b) wrong. I still say the population of the world, which is what counts, is growing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-the-water-come-from/476611.md?page=3)