# Where will we get our teachers from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550 "2005-09-26T19:56:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/21 "2005-09-27T02:25:26Z")
There are plenty of mid-, second-career types who teach when given the opportunity. The key is to streamline them in. There are plenty of retired NCOs and Commissioned Officers who would willingly teach, and the presence of that pension gives them some flexibility. That, and the military pay for 20+ years has given them a higher tolerance for mediocre pay. You can also tap adjunct teachers and sabbatical types to do short teaching tours. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/22 "2005-09-27T12:55:03Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Actually, fine if they demonstrated the necessary knowledge, or were just trained on the job. This was common practice for a great many years, and still is in many parts of the world. And it seems to cause no trouble. Push come to shove, nursing is not a terribly complicated task. It takes care and alertness, but no extrordinary education. That’s ignorance talking: I only WISH it was that easy! ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/23 "2005-09-27T13:01:42Z")
To get my small hijack back in line with the OP, it’s ignorant opinions like that that cause similiar shortages in Nursing: it’s a skilled job that takes lots of training, especially if you specialise. It’s not as hardcore as an MD but the responsibilities of nurses have expanded hugely: as an example I’ve seen someone do what the doctor ordered, have the patient die and get deregistered for not catching the docs mistake. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/24 "2005-09-27T14:08:15Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not as hardcore as an MD but the responsibilities of nurses have expanded hugely: as an example I’ve seen someone do what the doctor ordered, have the patient die and get deregistered for not catching the docs mistake. AFAIK, the British (and many other countries) still have a vastly shorter professional program of nursing education. Of course, much of the problem comes from the fact that hospitals keep trying to squeeze all their nurses into mega-nurses who know how to do everything. And state legislatures don’t help, by twisting the regulations. Still, professional nursing had a long history in the US, and was apparently the source of few complaints. In any case, I did not say it was _easy_. I said it was relatively straightforward (at least as far as theory goes). The skills nurses uyse seem to require more practice than pedagogy. [I hate that word.] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/25 "2005-09-27T14:22:40Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > First thought: you’re paying to have two staff in the room rather than one. Huge increase in the wage bill. Very likely, but maybe not. I don’t see the guest lecturer as being a full-time employee of a single school but an expert drawn from another field. I believe in specialization. One of the tough things about teaching is the breadth of ability a teacher is supposed to have. I wonder if breaking those requirements into two makes it twice as easy to fill the positions. A schmoe off the street can’t be dropped into a classroom and have to make do. But a schmoe off the street might be able to be dropped into a classroom where they aren’t in charge of everything, or anything really, other than talking about what they know. > [@](#): > > Second thought: a proportion of the good teachers will move into the ‘school lecturer’ position. Assuming you have a decent selection process, the bad school teachers won’t stand a chance. The result: you’ve skimmed the good teachers and left the schools with the worst ones. Maybe. But again, I wasn’t looking at it as having two sets of teachers, but having one set of teachers and one set of people who aren’t qualified to be “teachers” but are qualified to “talk about their subjects.” It’s not a super well-defined thought, you understand. I don’t have those. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/26 "2005-09-27T14:27:52Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > AFAIK, the British (and many other countries) still have a vastly shorter professional program of nursing education. I can’t speak for Britain (though I have heard Australian nurses that have worked there complain about restrictions on what they can do) but here it’s a 3 year Bachelors degree followed by an optional graduate year, followed by a graduate course in a specialy. Basically, if I want to be an intensive care nurse it’s 4-5 years of education, start to finish. I guess I’m just getting a bit rankled at **Dorkness** up there calling it a semi-profession. Like I said, it’s attitudes like that that are causing the worldwide teaching and nursing shortages we’re seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/27 "2005-09-27T16:30:40Z")
The teacher shortage is being addressed in some districts by[importing foreign teachers](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/07/16/teacher-shortage.htm): > [@](#): > > Many U.S. schools are pushing to recruit foreign teachers who can help remedy both problems: > > Chicago, the nation’s third-largest school district and the second-largest employer in Illinois, is looking for 3,500 new teachers for this school year. More than 130 teachers have been hired since August from 35 countries, including Japan, India, Colombia, Pakistan, Ghana, Jamaica and Mexico. > > The Atlanta public schools have 400 to 500 vacancies this school year, and recruiters have “scoured the earth for teachers,” says spokesman Seth Coleman. Recruiting trips have taken school leaders to Jamaica, South Africa and Canada. > > The Los Angeles Unified School District is “always chasing somewhere around 4,000” teacher vacancies annually, says Anthonio Garcia, director of recruitment. Since last year, about two dozen teachers have been hired from Spain, Mexico, Canada and the Philippines. In the global economy, foreign workers can fill any shortage. Supply and demand are effectively rendered moot, as there is now a vastly increased supply to draw on. If this trend continues, US trained teachers (and accountants and nurses) may find themselves at a disadvantage competing with foreign teachers who can accept lower salaries because they do not have huge college loans to pay off, as they were trained at cheaper foreign schools. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550/28 "2005-09-27T22:11:32Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > I guess I’m just getting a bit rankled at **Dorkness** up there calling it a semi-profession. Like I said, it’s attitudes like that that are causing the worldwide teaching and nursing shortages we’re seeing. “Semi-profession” is a term of art that I came across in one of my texts, that I liked :). The sociologist who defined the term gave three standards by which a job may be judged a profession. Lemme go pull it out… Okay. > [@Joseph Newman](#): > > We can distill the discussion of professionalism in the sociological literature to a set of three major characteristics: > > 1. A profession performs a unique, essential social service. > 2. A profession has a defined, respected knowledge base. > 3. A profession has autonomy. Doctors fulfill the first one. When it comes to healing the sick, doctors are unique in that they’re the only ones allowed to perform this essential service. I can’t just say, “I’ve got a degree in biology; I’ll fix you up.” Nurses are similarly good by the first one. Nobody can act as a nurse except that they are a nurse. Teachers do not fulfill this one. Even people on these boards believe that anyone can be a teacher if they know more than the kid they’re teaching. Emergency licensure allows anyone with a bachelor’s degree to go into the field of teaching. Doctors fulfill the second one. The body of medical knowledge is certainly well-respected, and we may define it by referring to peer-reviewed medical science. Nurses? Hm. Not so much. Teaching? Not really: teacher education is rife with politics, with big differences over what counts as the knowledge that teachers ought to know. Doctors fulfill the third one. The medical profession polices itself to a very large degree, with state medical boards populated by doctors and the AMA as an organization with tremendous power. Nurses? Not so much: as I understand it, generally it’s doctors who tell them what to do. Teachers? Hah! Teachers are to autonomy what fluffy bunnies are to raw killing power. When I say that nursing is a semi-profession, this is the sort of thing I mean. I’m not saying that nursing is easy, or that anyone can become a nurse, or that you just need a basic biology degree and you’re golden. I’m saying that they don’t have the autonomy that attorneys and doctors have, they don’t have the discrete body of knowledge of these two groups. But I’m also saying that in the US, nursing is more of a profession than teaching, and teaching needs to catch up. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-will-we-get-our-teachers-from/323550.md?page=1)