# Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386 "2011-03-29T14:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/81 "2011-03-31T03:36:02Z")
What is with the bizarre obsession with stone? Stone was useful in Europe because there is a lot of it lying around and it works well in the climate. But try to weather one Sahelien summer in a European farmhouse, and you’ll be begging for the breezy covered patios and thick cool walls and shaded windows of a traditional African house. A plague or epidemic with limited duration is hardly the same as the tse-tse fly, which rendered large swaths of the continent indefinitely unsuitable for raising livestock. How would Europe had done if they couldn’t have cows, pigs, sheet and goats? Malaria is actually a bigger deal now than it was in the past, but it has always limited movement since any resistance you develop is limited to the strain in your immediate area. But the tse-tse fly was the real limiting factor. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/82 "2011-03-31T03:46:08Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > Maybe a naive question since there are so many variables. A lot of the problems in Africa is often explained by the euro/american imperialism. > > How much did this mess up the Africa that we are seeing today? The main problem was that the colonial era ended. This brought to an end the best government services (infrastructure, schools, hospitals) seen before or since. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/83 "2011-03-31T04:01:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > A plague or epidemic with limited duration is hardly the same as the tse-tse fly, which rendered large swaths of the continent indefinitely unsuitable for raising livestock. Really? Where? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/84 "2011-03-31T04:47:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Really? Where? [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsetse_fly) has some background info and a map of the current problem and [this page](http://ergodd.zoo.ox.ac.uk/livatl2/tsetse.htm) has more specialized maps. Here is some info on the extent of the [problem right now](http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/FRG/FEEDback/War/V8180b/v8180b0s.htm) and how much it costs in lost cattle production, even with modern vector control. It’s always been a major problem, and there is evidence of tsetse fly control from as early as the 14th century. Tens of thousands of people also die yearly from sleeping sickness (which is pretty curable if caught early) and before modern medicine it was 100% fatal and killed hundreds of thousands. The toll on livestock, however, is what makes it such an economic dealbreaker. Without reliably healthy domestic animals, it’s tough to get enough protein to stop relying on hunting (which has limits as far as population density) and thus hard to develop cities and the organization that comes with that. Large areas without large permanent settlements is an obvious limit on the trade of not only goods, but ideas. Here is [another map](http://dna.kdna.ucla.edu/parasite_course-old/african%20tryps%20new_files/contents1.htm) showing how cattle production exists in a pretty narrow band between the desert and the tsetse zone. Here is a look at historical [tsetse distribution](http://ergodd.zoo.ox.ac.uk/download/reports/Historicaltsetse.pdf) in Southern Africa. If you look at the map, you find that not only were there not a lot of great kingdoms in the tsetse zone (with the exception of some Gold Coast kingdoms- which were very close to the Sahel where cattle is abundant), but most of the areas outside of the tsetse zone (the Sahel, the coast around Senegal, Southern Africa, the Horn of Africa and lightly infected parts of East Africa) mostly did develop more advanced organized states. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/85 "2011-03-31T09:41:53Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Another poster said that sub Saharan civilisation was held back by disease. > Ever heard of the Black Death ? I would be skeptical about the disease explanation too. But for someone holding that position the black death wouldn’t be that much of an issue. It’s not like bubonic plague was endemic to Europe and “we still did all right”. It came to Europe at a time when the continent was already pretty developed and its main outbreak correlates pretty well with the dark ages. > [@](#): > > As to the nasty colonials drawing borders that it seems caused unavoidable wars, which have held back the African advance to civilisation… > > Europe and Japan were smouldering ruins at the end of WW2, China didn’t exactly have an easy time of it either. > > But they’re amongst the wealthiest nations on earth. You could make a case that war between non-neighbouring nations can be a net positive (I’m talking in terms of long-term economics; I would not put a price on human life). You get in a tech race and mobilize a whole population towards a common goal. Then when it’s over, you generally have a peaceful period where you can consolidate. Conversely, internal strife, the kind that arbitrary borders cause, has few benefits. The economist Paul Collier estimates that the average civil war costs around 50 years of development. And its legacy is just a greater chance of conflict in future, not any new tech or (productive) changes to society. Finally, it makes me smile that so many people mention the industrious Chinese now. Growing up, there was plenty of racism about why the chinese remained so poor, especially compared to the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/86 "2011-03-31T11:34:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > What is with the bizarre obsession with stone? Stone was useful in Europe because there is a lot of it lying around and it works well in the climate. But try to weather one Sahelien summer in a European farmhouse, and you’ll be begging for the breezy covered patios and thick cool walls and shaded windows of a traditional African house. We have so much to learn from them ! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/87 "2011-03-31T12:09:02Z")
> [@Khaki\_Campbell](#): > > We have so much to learn from them ! Classy, dude. Again, if people have a personal problem with me I’m not sure why they don’t bring that up directly or use the handy “ignore” button. Cultures tend to develop building techniques that are suited for their environment and te resources at hand. A stone house is nice in a four-season climate, not so much in a two season one. Dinging African cultures for not building in stone would be like China dinging us for not building those cool upturned tile roofs. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/88 "2011-03-31T12:19:16Z")
And anyway, we don’t have much to learn. Adobe is a popular building material in the US Southwest even today, precisely because it is so well suited to the climate. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/89 "2011-03-31T13:01:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Classy, dude. Again, if people have a personal problem with me I’m not sure why they don’t bring that up directly or use the handy “ignore” button. [Haters gonna](http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://twenty-somethingtravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haters_gonna_hate.gif&imgrefurl=http://twenty-somethingtravel.com/2010/08/haters-gonna-hate/&usg=__mM2EwOMBfWdYdc7HVB0YxNxVstw=&h=305&w=400&sz=185&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=GP2K4zmjSjHgjM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=223&ei=1HqUTfLyMMPPgAfo_oXDCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhaters%2Bgonna%2Bhate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D685%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=767&vpy=125&dur=154&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=128&ty=108&oei=AHqUTcbTFIXJgQextMXXCA&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/90 "2011-03-31T14:48:44Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sorry mate but thats completely untrue, the oldest stone builing in the world is Newgrange in what is now Ireland, Stonehenge and many other henges were built BEFORE the Egyptians built the pyramids. You are wrong. They were built at approximately the same time. Stonehenge: > **[Stonehenge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge)** > > Stonehenge is a prehistoric megalithic structure on Salisbury Plain in Wiltshire, England, two miles (3 km) west of Amesbury. It consists of an outer ring of vertical sarsen standing stones, each around 13 feet (4.0 m) high, seven feet (2.1 m) wide, and weighing around 25 tons, topped by connecting horizontal lintel stones, held in place with mortise and tenon joints, a feature unique among contemporary monuments. Inside is a ring of smaller bluestones. Inside these are free-standing trili S... > [@](#): > > Archaeologists have believed that the iconic stone monument was erected around 2500 BC, as described in the chronology below. Newgrange: > **[Newgrange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange)** > > Newgrange (Irish: Sí an Bhrú) is a prehistoric monument in County Meath in Ireland, placed on a rise overlooking the River Boyne, eight kilometres (five miles) west of the town of Drogheda. It is an exceptionally grand passage tomb built during the Neolithic Period, around 3100 BC, making it older than Stonehenge and the Egyptian pyramids. Newgrange is the main monument in the Brú na Bóinne complex, a World Heritage Site that also includes the passage tombs of Knowth and Dowth, as well a Newgr... > [@](#): > > Newgrange (Irish: Sí an Bhrú) is a prehistoric monument located in County Meath, on the eastern side of Ireland, about one kilometre north of the River Boyne.[1] An example of a megalithic passage tomb mound, Newgrange was built between circa 3100 and 2900 BC, during the Neolithic period Pyramids: > **[Pyramid of Djoser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Djoser)** > > The pyramid of Djoser,\[a\] sometimes called the Step Pyramid of Djoser or Step Pyramid of Horus Netjerikhet, is an archaeological site in the Saqqara necropolis, Egypt, northwest of the ruins of Memphis. It is the first Egyptian pyramid to be built. The 6-tier, 4-sided structure is the earliest colossal stone building in Egypt. It was built in the 27th century BC during the Third Dynasty for the burial of Pharaoh Djoser. The pyramid is the central feature of a vast mortuary complex in an eno The... > [@](#): > > Djoser was the first or second king of the 3rd Dynasty (ca. 2667 to 2648 BC) of the Egyptian Old Kingdom (ca. 2686 to 2125 BC).[1] He is believed to have ruled for 19 years or, if the 19 years were biennial taxation years, 38 years[6]. He reigned long enough to allow the grandiose plan for his pyramid to be realized in his lifetime[4]. Newgate is not the “oldest stone building in the world”. The megalithic temples of Malta were older. The newly-discovered temple in Turkey is far, far older. > **[Göbekli Tepe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe)** > > Göbekli Tepe (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Turkish: \[ɟœbecˈli teˈpe\], 'Potbelly Hill'; Kurdish: Girê Mirazan or Xerabreşkê, 'Wish Hill') is a Neolithic archaeological site in Upper Mesopotamia (al-Jazira) in modern-day Turkey. The settlement was inhabited from around 9500 BCE to at least 8000 BCE, during the Pre-Potter The si... > [@](#): > > Göbekli Tepe (Turkish for “Potbelly hill”) is a hilltop sanctuary erected on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge some 15 km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (formerly Urfa / Edessa) in southeastern Turkey. The site, currently undergoing excavation by German and Turkish archaeologists, was erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BC (c. 11,500 years ago), before the advent of sedentism. Together with Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionized understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic. Note that it was built by hunter-gatherers. > [@](#): > > Something of that technical and logistical difficulty required to achieve this requires a quite advanced civilisation. The pyramids (particularly the great pyramids of Giza) are far more impressive as monuments, in terms of organization and labour, than Stonehenge. Trust me on this. 😃 The people who built the neolithic monuments dotting Europe did not live in cities and had a level of civilization that more closely appoximates pre-contact Polynesia than Egypt. The Polynesians built similar megalithc-type monuments: > **[History of Easter Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Easter_Island)** > > Geologically one of the youngest inhabited territories on Earth, Easter Island (also called Rapa Nui), located in the mid-Pacific Ocean, was, for most of its history, one of the most isolated. Its inhabitants, the Rapa Nui, have endured famines, epidemics of disease, civil war, environmental collapse, slave raids, various colonial contacts, and have seen their population crash on more than one occasion. The ensuing cultural legacy has brought the island notoriety out of proportion to the nu Ear... Erecting giant stones does not require advanced urban civilzations (unless you wish to argue that Easter Island had such?) Also, the actual oldest temple discovered was built by hunter-gatherers, prior even to the use of agriculture. Massive monuments do not an advanced civilization make. [quote] > [@](#): > > In the northern part of Britain stone built houses with furniture, inside toilets and running water were built BEFORE the pyramids. > > Sea going boats of this period have been found and Europe wide trade and interaction also happened at this time. Also not evidence of advanced urbanism. Again, the Polynesians put this to shame, travelling throughout the Pacific with dugout catamarans. > [@](#): > > It has now been found that agriculture didn’t originate in one place and spread but was at least in a couple of areas (though probably many more) it was discovered independently. Relevance? > [@](#): > > And yes the ancient Egyptians were most definitely Africans, but were culturelly and historically Middle Eastern rather then have any connection with sub Saharan cultures. So what? Also, Nubians were clearly “sub saharan Africans”, and had cities and pyramids almost as early as Egyptians! > [@](#): > > Another poster said that sub Saharan civilisation was held back by disease. > > Ever heard of the Black Death ? As others have remarked, the tsetse fly zone was _endemic_ rather than _epidemic_. All extant societies have been swept from time to type by epidemic disease. > [@](#): > > As to the nasty colonials drawing borders that it seems caused unavoidable wars, which have held back the African advance to civilisation… > > Europe and Japan were smouldering ruins at the end of WW2, China didn’t exactly have an easy time of it either. > > But they’re amongst the wealthiest nations on earth. > > Africa will never advance while apologists blame all their underperformance on the wicked whites. > > Start facing up to your own mistakes and you might get somewhere. > > Giving aid to Africa is like giving money to an alcoholic, with the same results. I’m not blaming Africa’s troubles on “wicked Whites”, but on accidents of geography - and refuting the absurd claim that a continent with some of the earliest urbanization in the world has a population somehow deficient in evolutionary terms because of a lack of urban history. That’s just inexcusably ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/91 "2011-03-31T18:00:37Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > the oldest stone builing in the world is Newgrange in what is now Ireland, [Not true.](http://pictures.traveladventures.org/images/tel-es-sultan02) > [@](#): > > Something of that technical and logistical difficulty required to achieve this requires a quite advanced civilisation. It doesn’t take an advanced civilization to move rocks around. > [@](#): > > In the northern part of Britain stone built houses with furniture, inside toilets and running water were built BEFORE the pyramids. Skara Brae, right? Lovely site. > [@](#): > > And yes the ancient Egyptians were most definitely Africans, but were culturelly and historically Middle Eastern rather then have any connection with sub Saharan cultures. This is simply[not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia#Nubia_and_Ancient_Egypt) [true](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text.html). > [@](#): > > Ever heard of the Black Death ? There’s a huge difference between the societal effects of an acute disease like Plague, and a chronic disease like Malaria or Sleeping Sickness. > [@](#): > > Europe and Japan were smouldering ruins at the end of WW2, China didn’t exactly have an easy time of it either. …but what were they like before that? Not exactly shitholes, were they? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/92 "2011-03-31T18:11:59Z")
[quote=“Malthus, post:90, topic:576386”] You are wrong. They were built at approximately the same time. Stonehenge: > **[Stonehenge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge)** > > Stonehenge is a prehistoric megalithic structure on Salisbury Plain in Wiltshire, England, two miles (3 km) west of Amesbury. It consists of an outer ring of vertical sarsen standing stones, each around 13 feet (4.0 m) high, seven feet (2.1 m) wide, and weighing around 25 tons, topped by connecting horizontal lintel stones, held in place with mortise and tenon joints, a feature unique among contemporary monuments. Inside is a ring of smaller bluestones. Inside these are free-standing trili S... Newgrange: > **[Newgrange](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange)** > > Newgrange (Irish: Sí an Bhrú) is a prehistoric monument in County Meath in Ireland, placed on a rise overlooking the River Boyne, eight kilometres (five miles) west of the town of Drogheda. It is an exceptionally grand passage tomb built during the Neolithic Period, around 3100 BC, making it older than Stonehenge and the Egyptian pyramids. Newgrange is the main monument in the Brú na Bóinne complex, a World Heritage Site that also includes the passage tombs of Knowth and Dowth, as well a Newgr... Pyramids: > **[Pyramid of Djoser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Djoser)** > > The pyramid of Djoser,\[a\] sometimes called the Step Pyramid of Djoser or Step Pyramid of Horus Netjerikhet, is an archaeological site in the Saqqara necropolis, Egypt, northwest of the ruins of Memphis. It is the first Egyptian pyramid to be built. The 6-tier, 4-sided structure is the earliest colossal stone building in Egypt. It was built in the 27th century BC during the Third Dynasty for the burial of Pharaoh Djoser. The pyramid is the central feature of a vast mortuary complex in an eno The... Newgate is not the “oldest stone building in the world”. The megalithic temples of Malta were older. The newly-discovered temple in Turkey is far, far older. > **[Göbekli Tepe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe)** > > Göbekli Tepe (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Turkish: \[ɟœbecˈli teˈpe\], 'Potbelly Hill'; Kurdish: Girê Mirazan or Xerabreşkê, 'Wish Hill') is a Neolithic archaeological site in Upper Mesopotamia (al-Jazira) in modern-day Turkey. The settlement was inhabited from around 9500 BCE to at least 8000 BCE, during the Pre-Potter The si... Note that it was built by hunter-gatherers. The pyramids (particularly the great pyramids of Giza) are far more impressive as monuments, in terms of organization and labour, than Stonehenge. Trust me on this. 😃 The people who built the neolithic monuments dotting Europe did not live in cities and had a level of civilization that more closely appoximates pre-contact Polynesia than Egypt. The Polynesians built similar megalithc-type monuments: > **[History of Easter Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Easter_Island)** > > Geologically one of the youngest inhabited territories on Earth, Easter Island (also called Rapa Nui), located in the mid-Pacific Ocean, was, for most of its history, one of the most isolated. Its inhabitants, the Rapa Nui, have endured famines, epidemics of disease, civil war, environmental collapse, slave raids, various colonial contacts, and have seen their population crash on more than one occasion. The ensuing cultural legacy has brought the island notoriety out of proportion to the nu Ear... Erecting giant stones does not require advanced urban civilzations (unless you wish to argue that Easter Island had such?) Also, the actual oldest temple discovered was built by hunter-gatherers, prior even to the use of agriculture. Massive monuments do not an advanced civilization make. > [@](#): > > Also not evidence of advanced urbanism. Again, the Polynesians put this to shame, travelling throughout the Pacific with dugout catamarans. > > Relevance? > > So what? Also, Nubians were clearly “sub saharan Africans”, and had cities and pyramids almost as early as Egyptians! > > As others have remarked, the tsetse fly zone was _endemic_ rather than _epidemic_. All extant societies have been swept from time to type by epidemic disease. > > I’m not blaming Africa’s troubles on “wicked Whites”, but on accidents of geography - and refuting the absurd claim that a continent with some of the earliest urbanization in the world has a population somehow deficient in evolutionary terms because of a lack of urban history. That’s just inexcusably ignorant. Sorry but I was replying to an assertation that while the incredibly advanced “Africans” (Read middle eastern ancient Egyptians) were civilised the Europeans were apparently living in small groups as hunter gatherers apparently at the same level as primitive jungle dwellers of recent times . Stonehenge may or may not have been just an impressive erection of large stones, it might or might not have had much more structure of the erodable kind but it did need… Firstly an impressive level of civil engineering. Secondly an impressive amount of social organisation, the henges weren’t built by local people alone, they had to have help from what, is even by today long distances. They had to be instructed,directed and motivated to do it in the first place. An impressive logistical set up, not only were some of the stones (and large ones by most standards) brought from long distances, but also the relatively huge amount of labour had to be fed and watered, sheltered and have their bodily functions taken care of without causing disease outbreaks which would have stopped the whole event dead in its tracks. Personally I don’t think that the people of New Guinea are capable of this but thats only my opinion. And yes I agree that the pyramids are more impressive but the civilisations were in different climates, different geological environments, had different outlooks and different eco systems. They were both advanced civilisations but were DIFFERENT. Oh yes I forgot they were apparently both “around the same time”. Try telling a bookie that he should pay out because your horse was actually in the same race as the winner. Good luck mate. And while civilisation is often equated with urbanisation that is just our present perception of it. You can have an incredible civilisation without living cheek by jowl with every man and his dog. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/93 "2011-03-31T18:14:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is Japan a colony considering its cultural imposition of the West? Not a colony, definitely affected by colonialism. > [@](#): > > Is China for that matter as Communism is a product of German philosophy? This is a bizarre non sequitur. Nobody imposed Communism on the Chinese from outside. And China, too, had a long colonial history, yes. > [@](#): > > The last time I checked Egypt was north of the Sahara. Check again. > [@](#): > > And these kingdoms due to cultural factors could not in so short a time (assuming no colonization starting in the 1600s or so) abandon its old superstitions and develop on par with the West. Why not? Other than European exceptionalism, why not? > [@](#): > > Even Japan while it adopted technology from the West, took World War II and American occupation to adopt things such as human rights. What? Are you under the impression that pre-war Japan was a lawless hellhole? People had legal rights. > [@](#): > > Alright, it wasn’t Zuma, sorry but his predecessor Thabo Mbeki certainly was a complete crackpot on AIDS and Zuma himself is not a good example for South Africans with regards to AIDS (consider that he had unprotected sex with a HIV positive woman). I never said he was a sterling man, but you were just \*\*wrong \*\*about the facts. And Clinton? Berlosconi? Sarkozy? These are moral men? The West is in a position to judge? > [@](#): > > Polygamy is an archaic practice and considered barbaric for the last few centuries by all civilized men. :rolleyes: Those savage black men… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/94 "2011-03-31T18:23:34Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > And while civilisation is often equated with urbanisation that is just our present perception of it. Not really. That’s what the word actually _[means](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization#Characteristics)_. Don’t make the mistake of treating “culture” and “civilization” as synonymous. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/95 "2011-03-31T19:03:32Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > [ > Sorry but I was replying to an assertation that while the incredibly advanced “Africans” (Read middle eastern ancient Egyptians) were civilised the Europeans were apparently living in small groups as hunter gatherers apparently at the same level as primitive jungle dwellers of recent times . … which happens to be true. The indisputable fact remains: in terms of everything that makes up civilization (cities, writing, etc.), the Africans, or at least some of them, were far in advance of Europeans, in terms of antiquity. > [@](#): > > Stonehenge may or may not have been just an impressive erection of large stones, it might or might not have had much more structure of the erodable kind but it did need… > > Firstly an impressive level of civil engineering. > > Secondly an impressive amount of social organisation, the henges weren’t built by local people alone, they had to have help from what, is even by today long distances. > > They had to be instructed,directed and motivated to do it in the first place. > > An impressive logistical set up, not only were some of the stones (and large ones by most standards) brought from long distances, but also the relatively huge amount of labour had to be fed and watered, sheltered and have their bodily functions taken care of without causing disease outbreaks which would have stopped the whole event dead in its tracks. > > Personally I don’t think that the people of New Guinea are capable of this but thats only my opinion. There you would be wrong. New Guinea has a well-established Megalithic monumental culture. Cite: > **[News Archives](https://www.findarticles.com/news/)** > > Explore the News Articles featuring Technology, Business, Entertainment, and Science & Health topics. Access reports, insights, and stories. In summary, New Guineans built megalithic structures similar to those built in Europe. > [@](#): > > And yes I agree that the pyramids are more impressive but the civilisations were in different climates, different geological environments, had different outlooks and different eco systems. > > They were both advanced civilisations but were DIFFERENT. No, they were nowhere near as advanced. There is nothing to indicate that europeans developed state-level civilizations, had cities or writing - all indicia of “advanced” civilization - at the time that these were enjoyed by Egyptians and Nubians. > [@](#): > > Oh yes I forgot they were apparently both “around the same time”. > > Try telling a bookie that he should pay out because your horse was actually in the same race as the winner. > Good luck mate. Well, if you insist - the pyramids were built BEFORE Stonehenge, contrary to your express assertion that “…Stonehenge and many other henges were built BEFORE the Egyptians built the pyramids”. Stonehenge: circa 2500 BC. Pyramid of Djoser: circa 2667 to 2648 BC. To my mind, that’s “about the same time” - for one, neither date is absolutely certain and could be out by centuries, particularly in the case of Stonehenge - but if you MUST have a WINNER, it would surely be … the pyramids. They are at least 148 years prior to Stonehenge, based on available evidence (approximations taken as true). > [@](#): > > And while civilisation is often equated with urbanisation that is just our present perception of it. > You can have an incredible civilisation without living cheek by jowl with every man and his dog. So … would you say that the New Guineans are “civilized”? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/96 "2011-03-31T19:52:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … which happens to be true. The indisputable fact remains: in terms of everything that makes up civilization (cities, writing, etc.), the Africans, or at least some of them, were far in advance of Europeans, in terms of antiquity. > > There you would be wrong. New Guinea has a well-established Megalithic monumental culture. Cite: > > [News Articles - FindArticles](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb1398/is_1_37/ai_n28917891/) > > In summary, New Guineans built megalithic structures similar to those built in Europe. > > No, they were nowhere near as advanced. There is nothing to indicate that europeans developed state-level civilizations, had cities or writing - all indicia of “advanced” civilization - at the time that these were enjoyed by Egyptians and Nubians. > > Well, if you insist - the pyramids were built BEFORE Stonehenge, contrary to your express assertion that “…Stonehenge and many other henges were built BEFORE the Egyptians built the pyramids”. > > Stonehenge: circa 2500 BC. > > Pyramid of Djoser: circa 2667 to 2648 BC. > > To my mind, that’s “about the same time” - for one, neither date is absolutely certain and could be out by centuries, particularly in the case of Stonehenge - but if you MUST have a WINNER, it would surely be … the pyramids. They are at least 148 years prior to Stonehenge, based on available evidence (approximations taken as true). > > So … would you say that the New Guineans are “civilized”? Well I’m not into recreational debate as such, feeling very knackered and about to get my head down. But putting theoreticals behind us,perhaps you could tell us all about the great sub Saharan exploreres who actually left the continent, the overseas trade networks that they established, the incredible scientific discoveries that they made, (ANY science will do, mathematics, physics,chemistry,biology, medecine, logic,whatever), Perhaps you could tell us about their literature…? Except that there doesn’t seem to be any written language invented by the sub Saharans. Ah I see No written history. Perhaps you could inform us about their intent to make human rights a serious item, plus abolishing,for example slavery…? Oh but the Africans are still to this day practicing it. Not as indentured workers , but as full blown slaves. There are more slaves, predominatley African slaves ,enslaved by Africans, today then there has been in all of history. Wiki is not the most trustworthy of cites so I suggest that you go directly to the U.N. internet source. I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, perhaps your Ebonics tutor can make it clearer to me . With the caveat that being “Whitey”, I’m obviously a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/97 "2011-03-31T20:16:41Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Well I’m not into recreational debate as such, feeling very knackered and about to get my head down. > > But putting theoreticals behind us,perhaps you could tell us all about the great sub Saharan exploreres who actually left the continent, the overseas trade networks that they established, the incredible scientific discoveries that they made, (ANY science will do, mathematics, physics,chemistry,biology, medecine, logic,whatever), > > Perhaps you could tell us about their literature…? > > Except that there doesn’t seem to be any written language invented by the sub Saharans. > > Ah I see No written history. > > Perhaps you could inform us about their intent to make human rights a serious item, plus abolishing,for example slavery…? > > Oh but the Africans are still to this day practicing it. > > Not as indentured workers , but as full blown slaves. > > There are more slaves, predominatley African slaves ,enslaved by Africans, today then there has been in all of history. > > Wiki is not the most trustworthy of cites so I suggest that you go directly to the U.N. internet source. > > I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, perhaps your Ebonics tutor can make it clearer to me . > > With the caveat that being “Whitey”, I’m obviously a racist. No written languages in Sub-Saharan Africa? No History or literature? No exploration or trade? No science or philosophy? Not so. For many of those items, take a look at the Aksumites: > [@](#): > > The Aksumite Empire or Axumite Empire (sometimes called the Kingdom of Aksum or Axum), (Ge’ez: አክሱም), was an important trading nation in northeastern Africa, growing from the proto-Aksumite period ca. 4th century BC to achieve prominence by the 1st century AD. It was a major player in the commerce between the Roman Empire and Ancient India and the Aksumite rulers facilitated trade by minting their own currency. The state established its hegemony over the declining Kingdom of Kush and regularly entered the politics of the kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula, and would eventually extend its rule over the region with the conquest of the Himyarite Kingdom. > > Under Ezana Aksum became the first major empire to convert to Christianity and was named by Mani as one of the four great powers of his time along with Persia, Rome, and China. In the 7th century the Muslims who originally converged in Mecca, sought refuge from Quraysh persecution by travelling to Aksum which is known in Islamic history as the First Hijra. Its ancient capital is found in northern Ethiopia. There you have it - sub-saharan Africans creating an “important trading nation”, trading with Rome and India, even acting as colonialists outside of Africa (!!!), named as one of the four major world powers of its day … As for “overseas trade networks they established”: > [@](#): > > Axum’s access to both the Red Sea and the Upper Nile enabled its strong navy to profit in trade between various African (Nubia), Arabian (Yemen), and Indian states. Not too shabby, eh? They certainly had written language: > [@](#): > > The Empire of Aksum is notable for a number of achievements, such as its own alphabet, the Ge’ez alphabet (which evolved from Epigraphic South Arabian during the late pre-Aksumite and proto-Aksumite period), which was modified to include vowels, becoming an abugida. Furthermore, in the early times of the empire, around 1700 years ago, giant Obelisks to mark emperor’s (and nobles’) tombstones (underground grave chambers) were constructed, the most famous of which is the Obelisk of Axum. > **[Kingdom of Aksum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_Empire)** > > The Kingdom of Aksum,\[note 1\]\[a\] or the Aksumite Empire,\[b\] was a kingdom in East Africa and South Arabia from classical antiquity to the Middle Ages, based in what is now northern Ethiopia and Eritrea, and spanning present-day Djibouti and Sudan. Emerging from the earlier Dʿmt civilization, the kingdom was founded in the first century. The city of Axum served as the kingdom's capital for many centuries until it relocated to Kubar in the ninth century due to declining trade connections The Ki... As for scholarship, the most famous centre in sub-saharan africa was probably the masdjid of Sankore, part of the famous university of Timbuktu, in which “literature covering topics of science, math, and medicine are also observed, among other disciplines”: > **[Sankoré Madrasah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore)** > > Sankoré Madrasa (also called the Sankoré Mosque, Sankoré Masjid or University of Sankoré) is one of three medieval mosques and centres of learning located in Timbuktu, Mali, the others being the Djinguereber and Sidi Yahya mosques. Founded in the 14th century, the Sankoré mosque went through multiple periods of patronage and renovation under both the Mali Empire and the Songhai Empire until its decline following the Battle of Tondibi in 1591. The mosque developed into a madrasa (meaning a scho Th... > **[University of Timbuktu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Timbuktu)** > > "University of Timbuktu" is a collective term for the teaching community of three mosques in the city of Timbuktu in what is now Mali: the mosques of Sankore, Djinguereber, and Sidi Yahya. It was an organized scholastic community that endured for many centuries during the medieval period. The university contributed to the modern understanding of Islamic and academic studies in West Africa during the medieval period and produced a number of scholars and manuscripts taught under the Maliki schoo Th... … All of the accomplishments you seek have, in point of fact, been accomplished by sub-saharan Africans. Obviously they are not _incapable_ of science, literature, forming trade networks, etc. - because they have done all those things. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/98 "2011-04-01T00:31:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No written languages in Sub-Saharan Africa? No History or literature? No exploration or trade? No science or philosophy? Not so. > > For many of those items, take a look at the Aksumites: > > There you have it - sub-saharan Africans creating an “important trading nation”, trading with Rome and India, even acting as colonialists outside of Africa (!!!), named as one of the four major world powers of its day … > > As for “overseas trade networks they established”: > > Not too shabby, eh? > > They certainly had written language: > > [Kingdom of Aksum - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_Empire) > > As for scholarship, the most famous centre in sub-saharan africa was probably the masdjid of Sankore, part of the famous university of Timbuktu, in which “literature covering topics of science, math, and medicine are also observed, among other disciplines”: > > [Sankoré Madrasah - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore) > > [University of Timbuktu - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Timbuktu) > > … > > All of the accomplishments you seek have, in point of fact, been accomplished by sub-saharan Africans. Obviously they are not _incapable_ of science, literature, forming trade networks, etc. - because they have done all those things. I thought the University of Timbuktu was established by the Tuareg Imashagan? These were saharan nomads with mixed ancestry. Some have significant sub-saharan ancestry as they were involved in operating the trans-Saharan slave trade. > **[23andMe Blog](https://blog.23andme.com/)** > > Learn more about the world of genetics on 23andMe's Blog! Discovery of what your DNA can tell you about health, ancestry, and science. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/99 "2011-04-01T01:21:54Z")
Timbuktu’s golden age was during the Songhai empire. Again, “black” and “not black” are not meaningful terms in the Sahel, unless you are specifically talking about Europeans. The Taurags are not “mixed race” anything. They are simply Taurags, as they have been for thousands of years. The most brutal slave trade in Africa right now is child slave labor for use on cocoa plantations, the majority of which gets bought by foreign companies. Traditional African slavery is something a bit different. It’s more like a very heavy caste/serf system. Slaves can and do work for wages, buy themselves out of slavery, and even own slaves themselves. It’s bad and needs to be abolished, but it is it’s own system and not like what we think of when it comes to classical “slavery.” ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/100 "2011-04-01T01:38:07Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Rhodesia doesn’t exist; it’s difficult to be “an authentic part of Africa” when your country doesn’t even exist. Gone. Over. Now if you are a citizen of an existing country of Africa…that would make you an African by default. Regardless if you claim a 0.1% or 100% descendance from European settlers or whatever. > > Hell, IMHO if you’re human and want to claim yourself as African, why not. 😉 Did the Asiatic (sp?) peoples migrate from Africa? Then they’re African, too! Colonel (General? Depending on the year?) Custer was born in Ohio; that makes him a native American. Lots of Ethiopian immigrants’ children have been gettin’ born in Ireland as of late. Does that make them Irish? (Ok, I’ll quit here before the Sidhe sour all the milk in the house…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=6)