# Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386 "2011-03-29T14:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/121 "2011-04-01T21:05:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Can we please please please keep theories of racial intelligence to another thread? This happens to every thread about Africa, and once it does it completely takes over the thread. Good news, **sven**. The moderator has issued me a formal warning that racial intelligence differences are not to be discussed in this thread. If they are relevant at all to the state of Africa or how Africa would have done had outsiders not participated in Africa’s history, apparently it is not OK to discuss them here. For those who hold to my understanding that races differ in ability, it’s a bit like discussing how the NBA would have turned out without the participation of blacks, but outlawing the opportunity to offer an opinion that their superior ability changed the game. Since I’m not interested in participating in debates which artificially constrain posters only to politically correct positions, it would appear your wish to be protected from painful facts has been granted by the moderator. Best wishes with your search for non-race-based Africa’s persistent underperformance. I still don’t think it’s because whites shot up their leaders, though. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/122 "2011-04-01T21:09:38Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Checked the cites. > > Nice try but no cigar . > > Rearrange the the following words into a well known phrase or saying… > > Nothing > > You’ve > > Got > I think that you have a magazine over there that informs us about the truth about U.F.Os and Alanteans and Cleopatria, and Jesus being Black. > I honestly believe that you’re an honest person,who totally believes in what you’ve posted . > Across the continents I say have a good’un. > > Good luck. Well, I’m certainly happy to know that the Aksumite Empire and the University of Timbuktu are no more real than Atlantis or UFOs. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/123 "2011-04-01T21:10:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They are not relevant, I specifically said they were off-limits in this thread, and I’m sick and tired of every Africa-related thread being hijacked by posts from the two of you (and other users) using those discussions as a platform for your theories on the inherent inferiority of Africans. The evidence is lacking and your persistence has graduated from grating but civil to simlpy irritating. You’re both getting formal warnings for ignoring my previous instruction, and if you keep doing this in other threads, more warnings are likely to follow. > > This topic is emphatically off-limits in this thread, pro and con. When it is an acceptable opinion, the “ignore” button is recommended for posters whose opinion is disliked by others. When it’s an unacceptable opinion, we get warnings? Feel free to ban me. It’s probably easier than finding evidence to the contrary for an opinion of which you are sick and tired and wish to label unsupported. But hey, it’s your board and I’m just a freeloader. Perhaps you’d like to view any number of other threads in which the topic of racial ability differences is discussed and enter a rejoinder about why the evidence presented there is “lacking.” I do apologize if my handful of posts on this thread have ruined it. That was not my intention. It’s not clear to me why what I said is more offensive or less appropriate than sven saying “we (whites) shot them.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/124 "2011-04-01T21:14:42Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I still don’t think it’s because whites shot up their leaders, though. Well, shooting up their most promising up and coming political talent on the eve of independence (which is well documented, and really did happen) certainly couldn’t have helped the whole process now, could it have? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/125 "2011-04-01T21:20:05Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > When it is an acceptable opinion, the “ignore” button is recommended for posters whose opinion is disliked by others. When it’s an unacceptable opinion, we get warnings? There is a discussion of the warnings in ATMB if you wish to participate, or we can continue talking about it in private. This thread is not the right venue to dispute the warnings or what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/126 "2011-04-02T02:44:35Z")
> [@TexasDriver](#): > > I highly recommend the book [Guns Germs and Steel](http://www.mcgoodwin.net/pages/gungermsteel.html) by Jared Diamond. Quotes from that web page: > > “JD’s main thesis is that” Eurasians domination “occurred not because of racial differences in intelligence, etc. but rather because of environmental differences.” Diamond overlooks the genetic changes that accompanied geographic and cultural changes. I’d recommed you consider UC Davis Economist Greg Clark’s book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ (particularly good on the Industrial Revolution) and ‘The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution.’ NY Times science writer Nicholas Wade’s ‘Before the Dawn’ is good too. They build on Diamond’s work but also consider how some traits are favoured in different farming/social environments. Steve Hsu discusses some of Clark’s work here. > **[Social Darwinism: 21st century edition](https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-darwinism-21st-century-edition.html)** > > This is a nice summary of economic historian Gregory Clark's views on recent human evolution. See related posts . I think one standard devia... ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/127 "2011-04-02T02:56:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Pretty much this (it happened after all, at least in North Africa). I can’t see Africa just being left alone, so it would have been a matter of who decided to exploit all those natural resources there. I’m not sure if the various peoples of Africa would have been better off with Islamic imperialism or European…it’s probably a toss up, though my knee jerk probably uninformed reaction is that they would have been better off with the Islamic kind in the long run. > > -XT That’s an interesting knee jerk. I’m curious about why you might maintain it? Arab enslavement of blacks, for instance antedates the European-based slave trade, and was eventually abolished (and not until the 19th century) only due to pressure from the West. Black slaves, by some accounts, were treated cruelly by their Arab masters; some speculation around why there is not a greater population of blacks in enslaving countries is that male black slaves were often made eunuchs or treated poorly enough not to be able to maintain a population before they died. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/128 "2011-04-02T03:00:52Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Diamond overlooks the genetic changes that accompanied geographic and cultural changes. I’d recommed you consider UC Davis Economist Greg Clark’s book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ (particularly good on the Industrial Revolution) and ‘The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution.’ I’m not sure how you missed this, but I’ve explained twice that this thread is not going off into the weeds of genetic inferiority. This exact book was mentioned two or three times. I’m giving you a warning for ignoring staff instructions. _This thread is not about genetics and race._ ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/129 "2011-04-02T03:40:54Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Diamond overlooks the genetic changes that accompanied geographic and cultural changes. I’d recommed you consider UC Davis Economist Greg Clark’s book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ (particularly good on the Industrial Revolution) and ‘The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution.’ NY Times science writer Nicholas Wade’s ‘Before the Dawn’ is good too. They build on Diamond’s work but also consider how some traits are favoured in different farming/social environments. Steve Hsu discusses some of Clark’s work here. > > [Information Processing: Social Darwinism: 21st century edition](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-darwinism-21st-century-edition.html) Did you mean to say that, had white imperialism not happened (or had whites not shot their leaders) Africans would have been first to the moon and possibly solved AGW with cold fusion because there is absolutely no evidence they are not equally capable to all other populations? While those comments would have been less supported by your cites, they would fall within the acceptable response range for answers to the OP’s question here. I am also in the middle of this difficult re-education process learning what we can post and what we cannot. This thread is not for disputing Warnings, so check the links for those threads in the Pit and the ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/130 "2011-04-02T04:17:43Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Watch your trap.:mad: > > Large-scale governments in a non-Colonialized Africa were rather unstable–possibly even more than today’s Africa. > > Further, there was little interest in infrastructure, until Colonial government demonstrated the benefits. > > Name the route of a paved road in pre-Colonial Africa; or name an improved port facility, before you throw the word “racism” around. Much of this infrastructure you speak of was also pushed by former colonists. 1.) It put African nations in debt and 2.) Made it easier to continue to exploit the land’s natural resources while exercising muscles as they forced African lands into economic dependence. //food for thought ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/131 "2011-04-02T04:53:04Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Did you mean to say that, had white imperialism not happened (or had whites not shot their leaders) Africans would have been first to the moon and possibly solved AGW with cold fusion because there is absolutely no evidence they are not equally capable to all other populations? While those comments would have been less supported by your cites, they would fall within the acceptable response range for answers to the OP’s question here. I am also in the middle of this difficult re-education process learning what we can post and what we cannot. This thread is not for disputing Warnings, so check the links for those threads in the Pit and the ATMB. Deliberately flouting Mod instructions does not become more acceptible with silly attempts at sarcasm. I am not looking to ban you, but I am **Warning** you that you are out of line and appear to be attempting suicide by Mod. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/132 "2011-04-02T04:54:31Z")
Also, why are we lumping a continent 3x the size of the U.S. into one category? [http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/africa\_in\_perspective\_map.jpg](http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/africa_in_perspective_map.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/133 "2011-04-02T05:02:07Z")
Similarly, why do people speak of “white” imperialism as if it whites are one monolithic group? There were various kinds of colonialism in Africa from a variety of different nations, all of which had their own way of going about it. And as others have said, there was Arab imperialism in Africa as well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/134 "2011-04-02T05:26:50Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Do not insult other posters with unfounded accusations of racism in this forum. > > You have a very special logic, it was an observation, and based on fact. To state as he did there would be no modern infrastructure at all in Africa now if not for white rule is only possible by racism, by the idea black africans would not in any way build infrastructure, since there is modern infrastructure that has been built. It is not just ignorance, because it requires beliefs that not only it would not be built, but it would never be built. I stand by it as observation, it is logical and without passion. There could have been many reasons why any particular people might not have performed or accomplished specific actions. Since the claim was not made in regards to the inherent capabilities of the people, there was no implied racism in the comment. Even if there had been such a claim, (as other posters have suggested), the charge of “racism” is still insulting and is still prohibited in this forum. Debate the facts and the statements and leave insulting speculation about motive out of this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/135 "2011-04-02T11:13:09Z")
Perhaps we can agree that, to date, no major modern innovation nor pockets of science leadership nor centers of academic excellence driven by sub-saharan Africans have appeared, even in the handful of stable African countries. Several decades on from independence, nations such as India have signs of recovery from whatever the negative effects of colonialism were. Indeed, they have built on the positive aspects such as transportation and communication and educational infrastructure and cast aside the artificial population-based ceilings. Since the same Europeans colonized both India (and the partition of India created as much havoc as any artificial political boundary drawn anywhere else) and some sub-saharan African nations, the evidence that African nations would have developed on their own without white imperialism appears lacking. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/136 "2011-04-02T14:25:07Z")
India had a) higher level of development \*prior \*to colonization b) a different model of colonization from that practised in most of Africa - market client rather than resource client. c) a completely different set of geographic conditions d) benefited from the so-called “green revolution” which was never really widely implemented in SSA d) Most African countries are 3-4 decades behind India in the independence stakes, and India is _only now_ emerging out of the effects of colonialism. So “wait and see” might be better than declaring Africa a failure in comparison to India. e) is only one country, so why are you comparing it to a whole continent? And why load the question with India? Why not compare Bangladesh or Nepal or Chile or Indonesia to SSA instead? Or compare India to just post-apartheid South Africa, and see how far that goes, in terms of technological development and academic institutions. f) the partitioning happened _post_-independence, so is hardly a factor in the effects of colonialism versus the way Africa was carved up \*during \*colonization. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/137 "2011-04-02T15:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > e) is only one country, so why are you comparing it to a whole continent? And why load the question with India? Why not compare Bangladesh or Nepal or Chile or Indonesia to SSA instead? Or compare India to just post-apartheid South Africa, and see how far that goes, in terms of technological development and academic institutions. India is massive and has more people than all of Sub-Saharan Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/138 "2011-04-02T15:30:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > India is massive and has more people than all of Sub-Saharan Africa. And one governing authority. Do you think it’s fair to compare one nation’s path to many divergent nations as one unit? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/139 "2011-04-02T16:29:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > India is massive Compared to Africa? Not really. Same order of magnitude as Sudan, Chad or South Africa. Not really “Massive” the way Russia or Canada or the US are. > [@](#): > > and has more people than all of Sub-Saharan Africa. For now.So what? It’s hardly a point in India’s favour, that they are so damn profligate with their resources, and SSA should pass India by 2075 or so, at current rates, anyway. But population size is a basis for comparison, why? When transborder factors and paucity of data make even individual African comparisons difficult at best, all you’re doing is comparing a very smeared-out distribution of already-shoddy data to one point sample. That’s \*very \*bad statistics. And as pointed out, all those Indians fall under one government. Compare them to another country, like South Africa, like I suggested. See how they stack up. I know SA has a higher HDI than India, a \*much \*higher GDP per capita, lower infant mortality, spends more on education, has higher literacy, but higher murder rate, higher HIV rate…what all that tells you, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/140 "2011-04-02T18:38:34Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Diamond overlooks the genetic changes that accompanied geographic and cultural changes. I’d recommed you consider UC Davis Economist Greg Clark’s book ‘A Farewell to Alms’ (particularly good on the Industrial Revolution) and ‘The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution.’ NY Times science writer Nicholas Wade’s ‘Before the Dawn’ is good too. They build on Diamond’s work but also consider how some traits are favoured in different farming/social environments. Steve Hsu discusses some of Clark’s work here. > > [Information Processing: Social Darwinism: 21st century edition](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-darwinism-21st-century-edition.html) You understand the fundamental point that black Africans are mostly farmers, right? The Bantu expansion - (could we call this the first colonialism in Africa?) - was driven by agriculture. Seriously. You can’t propose to have discussion about Africa and not get this right. This is the problem. You and the other resident racists are wrong on so many of the basic facts about Africa, because you don’t care enough to learn anything about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=8)