# Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386 "2011-03-29T14:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/161 "2011-04-05T17:50:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I wasn’t talking about the root, I was talking about how it is used as a term of art. Did you \*read \*that linked article?What is this bullshit? \*Individuals \*do not make a civilization - are these people part of a \*larger \*culture that includes cities, hierarchical social structures etc? Then they are civilized.Good thing this utter strawman in no way resembles what I said.:rolleyes:No. I consider myself a Barbarian because I use d12s, not d10s. Sorry but individuals DO make a civilisation, without an Issac Newton or two there is no scientific progress, no scientific progress means no overall advancement of civilisation. I’m afraid that the rest of your post seemed a little bit rambling and incoherent. If you had actually made a valid point, or for that matter ANY point, I would do you the courtesy of answering it . Unfortunately I am unable to address something that is non existant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/162 "2011-04-05T18:27:40Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sorry but individuals DO make a civilisation No, they don’t. A civilization is a group of people, no bloody dissembling allowed. > [@](#): > > , without an Issac Newton or two there is no scientific progress The Great Man theory of history is bullshit. > [@](#): > > I’m afraid that the rest of your post seemed a little bit rambling and incoherent. Translation : “I got called on my bullshit and now I got nothing.” > [@](#): > > If you had actually made a valid point, or for that matter ANY point, I would do you the courtesy of answering it . Translation: “I attempted to mischaracterise your argument. Since that didn’t work, I’m just going to pretend I won anyway. La! La! La! I can’t hear you!” Don’t do me any favours - your original point was weak (the oldest stone buildings in the world are not in your pathetic islands) and it’s gotten weaker since then. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately I am unable to address something that is non existant. :rolleyes: Has this stupid debate tactic ever worked for you? Oh, and Aksum had fuck-all to do with the Mediterranean. It was an African civilization, through and through. You’d know this if you were capable of following along in the links. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/163 "2011-04-05T18:57:35Z")
[quote=“Malthus, post:160, topic:576386”] Hey, are you really contending that the Aksumite Empire is some wiki creation? I assure you it is not so. 😃 [quote] You obviously have a lot more free time then I have (Curse you social life,curse you work !) so I’m afraid that I have neither the leisure nor the inclination to answer your every point. But I’ll just drop a few comments. One of my questions was name a single significant scientific discovery or major invention by a sub Saharan African. > [@](#): > > Any of these count? [http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/](http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/) > > How about Kamoya Kimeu, creditied in paleoathropology circles for discovering Homo Habilis? > > Yes, and a major purpose for Cambridge and Oxford universities prior to the 19th century was to - turn out Christian ministers. > > Your memory is at fault. Does this look like a London prision to you? > > [Newgrange - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange) > > It’s what I posted above. > > Bizzarely, you attempted to use the existence of megalithic monuments in Europe as a some sort of “proof” of their civilization - that they were (according to you) just as civilized as the ancient Egyptians, who were building cities and pyramids at the same time. > > Then you objected to my mention of the fact that this does not demonstrate a high level of “civilization” at all - because even the peoples of New Guinea built megalithic monuments! 😃 > > Get the point now? No I’m not assuming that the Aksumite empire didn’t exist, and they are as African versus middle eastern, as the ancient Egyptians, or the Catherginians or the Roman colony of Africa. To answer your second point . No they don’t. Minor additions to scientific disciplines/laws are not exactly on the same playing field as Newton postulating the laws of physics(Let alone Einesteins and Hawkings contributions) Mathematics ? The rules of Geometry ? Evolution ? D.N.A. Flight ? Genetics ? Medecine ? (Yes the first transplant was conducted by a descendant of a european colonist on the African continent) Rocket science ? Nuclear energy ? Anything groundbreaking whatsoever ? To answer your second point. Yes European medieval universities were founded to turn out Christian ministers. And still produced scholars people like Roger Bacon in the thirteenth century. Along way behind classical Athens, but then again the Athenians were European, so no points there. The university of Timbuktu has produced… Many excellent Quiranic scholars but so far not one world changing discovery or invention. Will this change soon ? Or ever ? No signs of it so far. One mans university is another mans Madrassi. Your next item, re read your OWN post. You start off mentioning Newgrange. Which soon becomes Newgate. Hardly an in depth knowledge of the subject is it? Oh someones mentioned something, so I’ll quickly Google it and pretend that I knew all about it all the time. As to Megalith building in western Europe before the pyramids were built you seem to have missed the point entirely. So I’ll reexplain it to you but in simpler terms. Yes the pyramids ARE more spectacular then Stonehenge, although built much later then S.H. but whats a thousand years or so after all of this time ? Seems to be an eye blink five thousand years later doesn’t it. The point that I was making, is that you have to have an organised and structured society, plus a knowledge of mathematics, civil engineering and physics to name just a few disciplines required to build the Henges. The societies of ancient Egypt, the climate, the geology etc. were entirely different to those of W.E. The Egyptians constructed that which they wished fo,r like amazing,huge stone tombs… The inhabitants of certainly northern Britain, but probably almost certainly many areas of Europe had running water and inside toilets, BEFORE the incredible stone tombs of the Egyptians were built. But its all a much of a muchness as the ancient Egyptians were of the M.E. not Africa. Irony point here ! I have seen, and been gobsmacked by, ancient Egyptian temples etc. when I was in country there. Stonehenge, which is within a very short travelling time of where I live, I have never seen in “the flesh”. I’m always too bloody busy. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/164 "2011-04-05T19:14:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, and Aksum had fuck-all to do with the Mediterranean. It was an African civilization, through and through. You’d know this if you were capable of following along in the links. I notice that he won’t even call it “sub-Saharan.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/165 "2011-04-06T06:55:03Z")
I like how “Mediterranean” is somehow seen as _completely_ distinct from “African”, as if being the entire southern portion of the bloody thing is of no consequence. Ancient Egypt was a **wholly** African civilization, not entirely Sub-Saharan in origin but certainly not beholden to Europe or even the Near East for its birth. It originated when the Sahelians from Nabta Playa (who were making stone observatories when the British were still hunter-gatherers) moved into the Nile Valley, not when anyone else moved south. It originated in Africa, it always maintained close ties with the rest of Africa. Saying any different is just ignorance of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/166 "2011-04-07T18:02:42Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I notice that he won’t even call it “sub-Saharan.” “He’s “probably got big ears aswell, and smells funny. Which of course would make all of” his” arguments null and void. If of course we had a clue what “he”, was like. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/167 "2011-04-07T20:19:24Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > “He’s “probably got big ears aswell, and smells funny. > Which of course would make all of” his” arguments null and void. > > If of course we had a clue what “he”, was like. You haven’t made any arguments, you’ve made a lot of assertions though; well over 50 in this thread alone. If I am pushed into guessing your argument (a possible link between all of these assertions) I’d say you believe that Africa (most like the “black” part) can’t/haven’t contained civilizations. When **Malthus** provided you with clear evidence refuting many of those assertions (and thus your narrative) you simply rejected it as fabrications and lies. You also moved your goal posts with even more assertions (Medicine, DNA, “small discoveries not enough,” etc). I made the observation (inline with your general history of denial) that you are refusing to even call Aksum “sub Saharan;” thus refusing to acknowledge that your own “sub Saharan” goal post has already been met. This is not like a criticism on your ear size or hygiene. This is a criticism on your willingness to simply acknowledge cited refutations. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/168 "2011-04-08T17:42:36Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You haven’t made any arguments, you’ve made a lot of assertions though; well over 50 in this thread alone. If I am pushed into guessing your argument (a possible link between all of these assertions) I’d say you believe that Africa (most like the “black” part) can’t/haven’t contained civilizations. > > When **Malthus** provided you with clear evidence refuting many of those assertions (and thus your narrative) you simply rejected it as fabrications and lies. You also moved your goal posts with even more assertions (Medicine, DNA, “small discoveries not enough,” etc). I made the observation (inline with your general history of denial) that you are refusing to even call Aksum “sub Saharan;” thus refusing to acknowledge that your own “sub Saharan” goal post has already been met. > > This is not like a criticism on your ear size or hygiene. This is a criticism on your willingness to simply acknowledge cited refutations. So that was why you addressed an individual poster, while discussing me in the third person, commenting on my style of post rather then debating the content with other posters. in a forum who’s purpose is to do this ? No problem, just give me some major contributions to the advancement of science or inventions that have significantly advanced human civilisation that were contributed by S.Saharan Africans and you’ve got a convert on your hands. O.K. just one of either. To answer \*\*Mr Dibble[/Bs post,this thread is about what would have happened if Africa hadn’t been colonised. The Med area was colonised by Europeans and peoples from the middle east, so they can’t be used as examples of African civilisation. The fact that they did so several thousand years ago doesn’t change the fact that they were colonists. as opposed to indigenous. And perhaps you could also inform us with all of this civilisation why so much of the continent is a basket case? So far we’ve had colonials, the climate, the fertility of the soil, disease, everything in fact except for the dog ate my homework. If excuses were oil then S.Saharan Africa would be a leading member of O.P.E.C. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/169 "2011-04-08T19:49:59Z")
It’s not “so much of a basket case.” It’s newborn into the modern world, and many countries are only just now taking its first tentative steps as countries truly independent from foreign powers. There are some very, very, very bad places. But the vast majority of Africa is peaceful. The vast majority of Africans are not child soldiers, or starving, or otherwise in a dire straights. Many places are thriving. Your average Motswana and Gabonese has a higher income than I made this year. The GDP in Namibia, Swaziland and Angola are in the same range as the GDP per capita in the Ukraine. The majority of the continent is full of places where you probably wouldn’t mind spending a summer. I was surprised to learn that I can take a legit Greyhound bus right through Zimbabwe. Senegal is so packed with sunbathing French women it’s almost a cliche. It’s only sixty years ago that Europe was a smoldering wasteland of war and genocide. OXFAM was founded to provide famine relief for Europeans. It’s only fifty years ago that millions of people in China were dying of genocidal famine while they ate corpses and tree bark. It’s only in the 1980s that the South Korean GDP began to vastly surpass the North Korean GDP. Africa is behind, but it’s no actually that far behind or irreparably far behind. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/170 "2011-04-08T20:09:45Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It’s not “so much of a basket case.” It’s newborn into the modern world, and many countries are only just now taking its first tentative steps as countries truly independent from foreign powers. > > There are some very, very, very bad places. But the vast majority of Africa is peaceful. The vast majority of Africans are not child soldiers, or starving, or otherwise in a dire straights. Many places are thriving. Your average Motswana and Gabonese has a higher income than I made this year. The GDP in Namibia, Swaziland and Angola are in the same range as the GDP per capita in the Ukraine. The majority of the continent is full of places where you probably wouldn’t mind spending a summer. I was surprised to learn that I can take a legit Greyhound bus right through Zimbabwe. Senegal is so packed with sunbathing French women it’s almost a cliche. > > It’s only sixty years ago that Europe was a smoldering wasteland of war and genocide. OXFAM was founded to provide famine relief for Europeans. It’s only fifty years ago that millions of people in China were dying of genocidal famine while they ate corpses and tree bark. It’s only in the 1980s that the South Korean GDP began to vastly surpass the North Korean GDP. Africa is behind, but it’s no actually that far behind or irreparably far behind. Oxfam was founded to provide aid to Africans. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/171 "2011-04-08T21:23:26Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > So that was why you addressed an individual poster, while discussing me in the third person, commenting on my style of post rather then debating the content with other posters. in a forum who’s purpose is to do this ? I wasn’t merely “commenting on your style of post,” I was also criticizing you; in particular, your use of denial. 😉 > [@](#): > > No problem, just give me some major contributions to the advancement of science or inventions that have significantly advanced human civilisation that were contributed by S.Saharan Africans and you’ve got a convert on your hands. > > O.K. just one of either. I have serious doubts on the sincerity of this… [Zeresenay Alemseged](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeresenay_Alemseged) (the director and curator of the Irvine Chair of Anthropology at the [California Academy of Sciences](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Academy_of_Sciences)) made an important discovery in Dikika, Ethiopia in 2000. The skeletal remains of a 3-year-old Australopithecus afarensis female [named Selam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selam_(Australopithecus)) which turned out to be the oldest skeleton of a humanoid child. You can hear him talk about how the discovery was made in a TED talk he gave in 2007 ([Zeresenay Alemseged looks for humanity’s roots](http://www.ted.com/talks/zeresenay_alemseged_looks_for_humanity_s_roots.html)), or listen to this [presentation by Nature](http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/hominiddevelopment/video/), or [read about](http://news.google.ca/archivesearch?q=selam+afarensis&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dlRBMt44-YmY1_M&ei=zm2fTeKcMbC10QGLlu3_BA&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQqgIwAQ) [it](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060920-lucys-baby.html). In looking over his CV, Zeresenay Alemseged is quite an accomplished fellow[ > [@](#): > > Positions Held > 2004 - 2008 Senior Researcher, Department of Human Evolution, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany > 2000 - 2003 Postdoctoral Research Associate, Institute of Human Origins, School of Human Evolution and Social Change, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ, USA > 1998 - 2000 Research Associate, French Center for Ethiopian Studies, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia > 1991 - 1993 Junior Geologist, Paleoanthropology Laboratory, National Museum of Ethiopia, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia > > Educational Background > 1998 Ph.D., Laboratory of Paleontology, University of Paris VI and the Museum National d’Histoire Naturelle, Paris, France “A. aethiopicus - A. boisei transition and paleoenvironmental changes in the Omo Ethiopia” > 1994 M.Sc., Paleontology, Institute of Evolutionary Sciences, University of Montpellier II, France > 1993 French Language Diploma, Cavilam de Vichy International Language School, Vichy, France > 1990 B.Sc., Geology, Department of Geology, Addis Ababa University, Ethiopia ]([http://research.calacademy.org/anthro/staff/zalemseged#tabs-profile-1](http://research.calacademy.org/anthro/staff/zalemseged#tabs-profile-1)) > [@](#): > > To answer \*\*Mr Dibble[/Bs post,this thread is about what would have happened if Africa hadn’t been colonised. > > The Med area was colonised by Europeans and peoples from the middle east, so they can’t be used as examples of African civilisation. Yes, North Africa can be used in examples of African civilizations; it’s really quite silly to say any different. > [@](#): > > The fact that they did so several thousand years ago doesn’t change the fact that they were colonists. as opposed to indigenous. cite. > [@](#): > > And perhaps you could also inform us with all of this civilisation why so much of the continent is a basket case? Whatever poor governance exists in today’s Africa clearly doesn’t stem from an absence of past civilizations on the continent simply because that assertion of yours has been proven false. > [@](#): > > So far we’ve had colonials, the climate, the fertility of the soil, disease, everything in fact except for the dog ate my homework. > > If excuses were oil then S.Saharan Africa would be a leading member of O.P.E.C. Excuses? I didn’t know that politics, history, climate and disease are off-limits. What scholarly subjects aren’t taboo for you? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/172 "2011-04-09T10:13:47Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Oxfam was founded to provide aid to Africans. Bullshit. Really, it’s not hard to[look up facts](http://www.oxfam.org/en/about/history) for yourself, you know. [ > [@](#): > > The original Oxford Committee for Famine Relief was a group of concerned citizens such as Canon Theodore Richard Milford (1896–1987), Professor Gilbert Murray and his wife Lady Mary, Cecil Jackson-Cole and Sir Alan Pim. The Committee met in the Old Library of University Church of St Mary the Virgin, Oxford, for the first time in 1942,\*\* and its aim was to relieve famine in Greece\*\* caused by Allied naval blockades. By 1960, it was a major international non-governmental aid organisation. ]([Oxfam - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfam#History_and_beginnings)) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/173 "2011-04-09T10:31:27Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > The Med area was colonised by Europeans and peoples from the middle east, so they can’t be used as examples of African civilisation. Dynastic/Ancient Egypt (OK) was \*never \*colonized by Europeans or Middle Easterners. It \*was \*(briefly) conquered by Asian Hyksos, but so what? It was also conquered by Nubians, and for a longer time. But generally, it was (_wholly **African** _) Egypt that did the conquering. > [@](#): > > And perhaps you could also inform us with all of this civilisation why so much of the continent is a basket case? VEry little of it is. No more so than Eurasia, really. > [@](#): > > So far we’ve had colonials, the climate, the fertility of the soil, disease I vote for "all of the above, and then some. But I see you continue lumping an incredibly diverse continent into one entity. Tell me, why should South Africa and Ivory Coast be grouped together anymore than, say, the UK and Kosovo? Why is “Europe” such a hopeless basket case, **L4L**? Why did “you” still have rape camps and ethnic cleansing in the close of the twentieth century? > [@](#): > > If excuses were oil then S.Saharan Africa would be a leading member of O.P.E.C. You joke - Two S.S.A.countries \*are \*leading members of OPEC. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/174 "2011-04-09T14:08:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. Really, it’s not hard to[look up facts](http://www.oxfam.org/en/about/history) for yourself, you know. > [URL=“[Oxfam - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfam#History_and_beginnings)”] My god you’ve certainly surprised me, and fought ignorance on that one. And I say that without any irony at all. I genuinlly believed my entire life that Oxfam was dedicated to Africa. Nice one mate. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/175 "2011-04-09T14:31:50Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I wasn’t merely “commenting on your style of post,” I was also criticizing you; in particular, your use of denial. ;)I have serious doubts on the sincerity of this… > > [Zeresenay Alemseged](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeresenay_Alemseged) (the director and curator of the Irvine Chair of Anthropology at the [California Academy of Sciences](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Academy_of_Sciences)) made an important discovery in Dikika, Ethiopia in 2000. The skeletal remains of a 3-year-old Australopithecus afarensis female [named Selam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selam_(Australopithecus)) which turned out to be the oldest skeleton of a humanoid child. > > You can hear him talk about how the discovery was made in a TED talk he gave in 2007 ([Zeresenay Alemseged looks for humanity’s roots](http://www.ted.com/talks/zeresenay_alemseged_looks_for_humanity_s_roots.html)), or listen to this [presentation by Nature](http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/hominiddevelopment/video/), or [read about](http://news.google.ca/archivesearch?q=selam+afarensis&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dlRBMt44-YmY1_M&ei=zm2fTeKcMbC10QGLlu3_BA&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQqgIwAQ) [it](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060920-lucys-baby.html). > > In looking over his CV, Zeresenay Alemseged is quite an accomplished fellow[URL=“[http://research.calacademy.org/anthro/staff/zalemseged#tabs-profile-1](http://research.calacademy.org/anthro/staff/zalemseged#tabs-profile-1)”]Yes, North Africa can be used in examples of African civilizations; it’s really quite silly to say any different.cite.Whatever poor governance exists in today’s Africa clearly doesn’t stem from an absence of past civilizations on the continent simply because that assertion of yours has been proven false. Excuses? I didn’t know that politics, history, climate and disease are off-limits. What scholarly subjects aren’t taboo for you? For some reason you don’t seem to understand the gist of my request. I want you to name me the person who discovered the existance of electricity, not someone who invented a better light switch. I want you to tell me about the person who discovered the laws of physics, not someone whos slightly improved the performance of the internal combustion engine. I want you to inform me of the individual who discovered D.N.A. and its characteristics and its influence on life, not the mapping done by code monkeys once the discovery has been made. Modifications and tinkering are easy, the hard bit is making the original discovery, thinking outside of the box. My god we orbit the sun not vice versa. The discovery of Pi. So just WHERE did nuclear energy come from ? You have still yet to come up with an original groundbreaking discovery or invention by a sub Saharan African. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/176 "2011-04-09T14:46:43Z")
What, fire and tools not good enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/177 "2011-04-09T16:34:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, fire and tools not good enough for you? Compared with say the invention of manned flight, no not really. Or computers, or nuclear fission, or biological engineering, rocket science, medecine, meoteorology even… No sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/178 "2011-04-09T17:35:21Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > You have still yet to come up with an original groundbreaking discovery or invention by a sub Saharan African. I told you a while back. Ironworking and casting was developed independently in sub-Saharan Africa. That’s a pretty major invention, because you can do a lot more with iron tools and weapons than you can do with stone or bronze tools and weapons. More recently, South Africans, both white and black, are doing a hell of a lot of medical research these days. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/179 "2011-04-09T17:52:41Z")
I have lived and worked in Angola for the past four years, and the Angolans I encounter don’t concern themselves with silly “What if ?” questions regarding the impact on the 400 year Portuguese rule. I would guess that this would be the case in other African countries. The event that had the most devastating impact on Angola was the civil war that followed independence. It lasted far longer than it should have due to the Cold war “imperialism” of the US and the USSR. As to tourism in Angola, there are some very nice beaches,hotels, and restaurants here in Luanda. We have been to a few of the National parks and they are quite nice although the accommodations are a bit rustic, so most of the visitors are not from the US. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/180 "2011-04-09T17:54:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I told you a while back. Ironworking and casting was developed independently in sub-Saharan Africa. That’s a pretty major invention, because you can do a lot more with iron tools and weapons than you can do with stone or bronze tools and weapons. > > More recently, South Africans, both white and black, are doing a hell of a lot of medical research these days. Sorry me old mucker,but you’ll have to do a little bit better then that. If thats the best that you can come up with… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386.md?page=10)