Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened?

[Belowjob2.0]

@Chief_Pedant

The thing Dr Diamond missed is the persistence of that unluckiness for certain groups. The “racial” groups he does not believe have “racial differences in intelligence” have proved remarkably resistant to being brought up to par even when exposed to the same lucky environmental privileges other groups have. Europeans and other invaders made sub-saharan Africa quite productive despite its supposed disease-ridden and geographical disadvantages, and sub-saharan groups have failed to achieve intellectual par despite exposure to more successful cultures. Witness, for example, the economic successes of South Africa under European control, or the lack of success of sub-saharan blacks worldwide in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) fields.

Dr Jared’s is a comfortable position that disparate outcomes are entirely the result of historic environmental luck. (For example, he mentions “discovering” agricultural methods as if a lucky European turned over a rock and there it was.) To date his implication that there are no innate differences among successful groups is entirely unsupported by actual facts. Here in the US, for example, self-identified “blacks” whose genetic heritage is perhaps 80 or 90% sub-saharan ancestry underperform self-identified “whites” whose genetic inheritance is 95+% white even when nurturing influences such as parental education and wealth are greater for the self-identified black group.

The modern world requires a deep bench of relatively capable people to create and maintain modern infrastructure, be it transportation, communication, manufacture or whatever. Without that deep bench, progress is utterly dependent on imported expertise–always spotty and inconsistent, and frequently supplied with ulterior motive if not outright rapaciousness.

Consider Mr Mugabe’s dilemma: Continue being dominated by successful white invaders, or turn the farms over to the incompetent. Bummer of a choice.

Your claims have been consistently proven wrong, yet you repeat them again and again. Why?

[tomndebb]

@Belowjob2.0

You and the other resident racists. . . .

Do not resort to name calling in this forum.

[ /Moderating ]

[Little_Nemo]

I don’t envy you having to moderate this thread Tom. I think Ed should give you a bonus coffee mug.

[Capitaine_Zombie]

@Belowjob2.0

This is the problem. You and the other resident racists are wrong on so many of the basic facts about Africa, because you don’t care enough to learn anything about it.

Quoted for truth. Rummaging for bias-confirming factoids has never been the same as looking for truth (looking for truth is the opposite, you look for things that would dispel what you actually believe).

BTW, why do we have to avoid the word racist with people that refer to other races as Negroes or Orientals? This thread is so warped in its mod rules.

[Chen019]

@Belowjob2.0

You understand the fundamental point that black Africans are mostly farmers, right?

The Bantu expansion - (could we call this the first colonialism in Africa?) - was driven by agriculture.

Seriously. You can’t propose to have discussion about Africa and not get this right.

This is the problem. You and the other resident racists are wrong on so many of the basic facts about Africa, because you don’t care enough to learn anything about it.

Yes, I realise that. However, in sub-Saharan Africa women do most of the labor. These are referred to as ‘female farming economies’. Where women are largely self-reliant in providing for themselves and their children you’re going to have selection for more 'alpha’s (Big Men traits) and fewer ‘beta’ males (nerd traits).

[tomndebb]

@Capitaine_Zombie

BTW, why do we have to avoid the word racist with people that refer to other races as Negroes or Orientals? This thread is so warped in its mod rules.

There is nothing “warped” in asking people to refrain from name-calling.

[Belowjob2.0]

@Chen019

Yes, I realise that. However, in sub-Saharan Africa women do most of the labor. These are referred to as ‘female farming economies’. Where women are largely self-reliant in providing for themselves and their children you’re going to have selection for more 'alpha’s (Big Men traits) and fewer ‘beta’ males (nerd traits).

So when you’re obviously wrong, you change the subject.

Male roles vary from culture to culture in different African societies.

In many African ethnic groups, a man can’t marry until he has enough resources/money/land/cattle. The polygamy that’s found in many African societies only amplifies this trend. Men who are good at getting resources - nerds, in your terminology, get more women, and the men with few resources end up with none.

Here’s the deal: you don’t really know anything about Africa, and you don’t really want to know. So you should probably stop talking about Africa.

[Chen019]

@Belowjob2.0

So when you’re obviously wrong, you change the subject.

Male roles vary from culture to culture in different African societies.

In many African ethnic groups, a man can’t marry until he has enough resources/money/land/cattle. The polygamy that’s found in many African societies only amplifies this trend. Men who are good at getting resources - nerds, in your terminology, get more women, and the men with few resources end up with none.

Here’s the deal: you don’t really know anything about Africa, and you don’t really want to know. So you should probably stop talking about Africa.

What was I wrong about? I said Diamond omitted the impact of geographic & cultural factors on selection for different traits. Did I say agriculture never occurred in Africa?

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@MrDibble

Compare them to another country, like South Africa, like I suggested. See how they stack up.
I know SA has a higher HDI than India, a *much *higher GDP per capita, lower infant mortality, spends more on education, has higher literacy, but higher murder rate, higher HIV rate…what all that tells you, I don’t know.

How is income inequality in South Africa? It may be that white/Indian/coloured South Africans have a massive gap with black South Africans with regards to living standards even more so than in the US. A large chunk of it is obviously due to Apathareid and another due to HIV/AIDS…

[Lust4Life]

@Malthus

Well, I’m certainly happy to know that the Aksumite Empire and the University of Timbuktu are no more real than Atlantis or UFOs.

The trouble with becoming an instant expert by cherry picking Wiki items, rather then actually studying the subject, is that Wiki items are often written by those with their own agenda.

Do not be surprised if you find articles informing us how the Russian Army won the war single handed while the Western allies cowered in their barracks, or how such and suchs national monument is actually a thousand years older then is generally held by other scholars worldwide.( Funny how some national tourist boards are better informed then historians and archaeologists.)

You,or anyone for that matter would spend your time much better reading multiple books rather then Googling.

I suspected a level of bias when checking out some Wiki items about the Aksumite empire (Which actually owes more to being M.E.tern then sub Saharan African ) when it talked about when it was at its “Tallness”..

Temporaily nonplussed I then realised that it meant “Height”.
You obviously have a lot more free time then I have (Curse you social life,curse you work !) so I’m afraid that I have neither the leisure nor the inclination to answer your every point.

But I’ll just drop a few comments.

One of my questions was name a single significant scientific discovery or major invention by a sub Saharan African.

You side stepped this and mentioned the University of Timbuktu, and yes it does exist and has done for a fairwhile, though only by Sb.Sh. standards.

The U.of T. is and has always been a center of learning for studying the Quiran.
It does cover other subjects, but not at any world equivilating (If thats a word) let alone world beating, level.

Not one major scientific discovery has come from this institution nor is it very likely that one will in the future.
By the way when mentioning oldest builings in the world I was NOT talking about NEWGATE as you seem to think in your post, Newgate was a London prison in I think, the 18 th.c.

If you refer to my original post I was talking about NEWGRANGE.

You also somewhat bizarrely get into a pissing contest about whether ancient Turks, Maltese and Oceanics from the second millenium are better the the prehistoric peoples of Western Europe.

As none of these are Sb,Sh. Africans I fail to see your point.

By the way the slow westward drift of the Oceanics across the Pacific is indeed an incredible feat , but its in no way comparable to regular Europe wide trade in Pre history.

Apart from their being vast differences in the time periods, its apples and oranges.
Try looking up the examples you gave as cites in the library rather then on the net.
It’ll be worth your while believe me.

[Lust4Life]

MR Dibble, am double posting as that one was getting rather long.

To answer your point about civilisation meaning urbanisation, yes I totally realise that civil means city etc.etc.

But that was the mere evolution of the word , the meaning has changed over a couple of thousand years.

Or are you saying that those who farm the Australian outback are NOT civilsed ?

How about those living in the American S.W.tern desert ?

Or someone living in the Falkland islands?

You don’t necessarily need to live in a large city to be civilised, not now and not back then, whatever the Ancient Greeks own particular viewpoints were several thousand years ago.

They described the non Greek speakers as Barbarians because their languages sounded in their ears like the Baa ing of sheep.

Do you consider yourself to be a barbarian because you are’nt a native classical Greek speaker ?

[MrDibble]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

How is income inequality in South Africa

No, this is not how things work. You do not get to just jump on to more questions. Address *my *points first. Then we can move on to this new irrelevancy.

[MrDibble]

@Lust4Life

But that was the mere evolution of the word , the meaning has changed over a couple of thousand years.

I wasn’t talking about the root, I was talking about how it is used as a term of art. Did you *read *that linked article?

Or are you saying that those who farm the Australian outback are NOT civilsed ?
How about those living in the American S.W.tern desert ?
Or someone living in the Falkland islands?

What is this bullshit? *Individuals *do not make a civilization - are these people part of a *larger *culture that includes cities, hierarchical social structures etc? Then they are civilized.

You don’t necessarily need to live in a large city to be civilised

Good thing this utter strawman in no way resembles what I said.

Do you consider yourself to be a barbarian because you are’nt a native classical Greek speaker ?

:rolleyes:No. I consider myself a Barbarian because I use d12s, not d10s.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Lust4Life

One of my questions was name a single significant scientific discovery or major invention by a sub Saharan African.

Iron smelting was likely invented independently in sub-Saharan Africa.

[even_sven]

To support my claims about light-skinned Africans, check out this old chart. Look at how much of that is lighter skinned. It’s a huge chuck of the continent, and it’s a pretty big chunk of the world. I think it’s important to remember that these changes represent both a gradual change in shade, and a lot of intermingling of diverse people. It’s not just “black people and whiter people making mixed people.” It’s a lot of different people making even more different people.

[even_sven]

As for African civilization, here is a bit of history from a huge study done on African genetic diversity (the whole study is interesting- this is just the supplementary material.) Emphasis is mine.

Of the four African language families, Niger-Kordofanian is the most widespread. Its languages are spoken across half of Africa. Some of the West African Niger-Kordofanians sampled in our study belonged to **urbanized societies, with centralized political structures, social stratification, and elaborate ritual institutions, and were historically involved in complex systems of long-distance trade (e.g. the Yoruba and other southern Nigerians, as well as the Asante and Brong, for the past 1500 years, and the Malinke (Mende) and their ancestors since 3,500-3,000 ya). **Many of the Niger- Kordofanians of Central and southeastern Africa sampled in this study belonged to chiefdom-size polities since 1500-1000 ya, but others, most notably the Kongo, formed powerful kingdoms with widespread trade connections across the Congo basin (S69).

The Afroasiatic family includes a great variety of societies. Many Chadic peoples of West Africa lived in chiefdom-sized agricultural communities, but the Hausa in particular for the past 1000 years have formed an urbanized society with cities of up to 50,000 inhabitants, engaged in manufacture and widespread commercial activities. The Amazigh-speaking Mzab of the Sahara formed a commercial enclave with similarly widespread commercial relations. Many of the Cushitic populations, in contrast, were organized into village-scale farming or agro-pastoral communities; others such as the Beja pastoralists and Oromo mixed farmers formed alliances of up to several thousand people, on the basis of either clan confederacies or on age-grade institutions of governance (S69). This language family also includes the ancient Egyptians and one group, the Semites, who reside in northern Africa and the Middle East (S70).

The Nilo-Saharan family extends across another wide expanse of Africa, from the Songay of Mali in the west to the Nilotes of southern Sudan and Eastern Africa. The Central Sudanic groups of the Chad Basin formed both chiefdoms and kingdoms in recent centuries, while the Kanuri and Kanembu over the past 1000 years belonged to powerful kingdoms with wide-reaching commercial connections. States as early as 3500 BC along the Nubian Nile also spoke Nilo-Saharan languages (S62, S69). In contrast,the Nilotic peoples often belonged to large alliances, clan-based as among the Dinka and Nuer of southern Sudan or from age-grade institutions as among the Maasai of East Africa (S69).

Is that enough “civilization” for you?

[Farmer_Jane]

sighs** to answer the OP**, I’d like to think it that the African continent would be the new status symbol vacation. Americans don’t go to Paris (or stereotyped yuppie European vacations) now because they want to go to a salon. They go to Europe because it you can put it on your social resume. College kids go to Mexico because they like boobs and tequila. Honeymooners like Hawaii because it’s (safely) exotic.

If the African continent weren’t so war torn and poor, then travel agencies would be booking trips to the unfortunate continent. I’m not talking about safaris, either. Yes, I know there are some tourists spots and resorts, but can you imagine how wonderful it would be if Africa had the chance to use its beauty and resources in its favor?

Look at our economic policies. The economic dependence we create is just a nuanced form of imperialism.

I donno about you, but who wants to open a strip mall in the center of this? Come on.

http://www.nativeescapes.com/images/VictoriaFalls.jpg

Give me that over “civilization” for my next dream vacation.

Some stuff is just not on the agenda for a reason.

(Yes, I understand that Victoria Falls attracts tourists, but you get the point.)

[even_sven]

Your dream is already a reality. Americans don’t make it to Africa in droves because it is far away and we have little familiarity with African cultures. But among upscale Europeans, a trip to Africa is roughly equivalent to a trip to the Caribbean for us. The beaches of Senegal are packed with French sunbathers, South Africa is run over with Germans on package tours, and British people flock to Kenya. Africa is much higher on Europe’s radar than it is on ours.

[An_Gadai]

@even_sven

Your dream is already a reality. Americans don’t make it to Africa in droves because it is far away and we have little familiarity with African cultures. But among upscale Europeans, a trip to Africa is roughly equivalent to a trip to the Caribbean for us. The beaches of Senegal are packed with French sunbathers, South Africa is run over with Germans on package tours, and British people flock to Kenya. Africa is much higher on Europe’s radar than it is on ours.

I was gonna say, holidays in Africa, primarily South Africa but not exclusively by any means, are increasingly common here. While North African countries like Tunisia,Morocco, and Egypt have become the purlieu of cheap airlines and package holiday companies.

[Malthus]

@Lust4Life

The trouble with becoming an instant expert by cherry picking Wiki items, rather then actually studying the subject, is that Wiki items are often written by those with their own agenda.

Do not be surprised if you find articles informing us how the Russian Army won the war single handed while the Western allies cowered in their barracks, or how such and suchs national monument is actually a thousand years older then is generally held by other scholars worldwide.( Funny how some national tourist boards are better informed then historians and archaeologists.)

You,or anyone for that matter would spend your time much better reading multiple books rather then Googling.

I suspected a level of bias when checking out some Wiki items about the Aksumite empire (Which actually owes more to being M.E.tern then sub Saharan African ) when it talked about when it was at its “Tallness”..

Temporaily nonplussed I then realised that it meant “Height”.

Hey, are you really contending that the Aksumite Empire is some wiki creation? I assure you it is not so.

[quote]
You obviously have a lot more free time then I have (Curse you social life,curse you work !) so I’m afraid that I have neither the leisure nor the inclination to answer your every point.

But I’ll just drop a few comments.

One of my questions was name a single significant scientific discovery or major invention by a sub Saharan African.

[quote]

Any of these count? http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/

How about Kamoya Kimeu, creditied in paleoathropology circles for discovering Homo Habilis?

You side stepped this and mentioned the University of Timbuktu, and yes it does exist and has done for a fairwhile, though only by Sb.Sh. standards.

The U.of T. is and has always been a center of learning for studying the Quiran.
It does cover other subjects, but not at any world equivilating (If thats a word) let alone world beating, level.

Not one major scientific discovery has come from this institution nor is it very likely that one will in the future.

Yes, and a major purpose for Cambridge and Oxford universities prior to the 19th century was to - turn out Christian ministers.

By the way when mentioning oldest builings in the world I was NOT talking about NEWGATE as you seem to think in your post, Newgate was a London prison in I think, the 18 th.c.

If you refer to my original post I was talking about NEWGRANGE.

Your memory is at fault. Does this look like a London prision to you?

Newgrange

It’s what I posted above.

You also somewhat bizarrely get into a pissing contest about whether ancient Turks, Maltese and Oceanics from the second millenium are better the the prehistoric peoples of Western Europe.

As none of these are Sb,Sh. Africans I fail to see your point.

Bizzarely, you attempted to use the existence of megalithic monuments in Europe as a some sort of “proof” of their civilization - that they were (according to you) just as civilized as the ancient Egyptians, who were building cities and pyramids at the same time.

Then you objected to my mention of the fact that this does not demonstrate a high level of “civilization” at all - because even the peoples of New Guinea built megalithic monuments!

Get the point now?