# Where would humanity be if horses were never a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525 "2024-06-05T18:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/41 "2024-06-06T01:19:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > We’d have bred dogs large enough to ride, probably. Maybe not. Look at the largest breeds today, like Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds – they don’t live nearly as long as smaller breeds. An eight-year-old Dane is already nearing the end of its life. Training for warhorses takes a lot of time. Alexander’s famous warhorse, [Bucephalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucephalus), for example, fully trained, was said to be 12 or 13 years old already when Alexander acquired him. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/42 "2024-06-06T01:22:26Z")
Cities in the horse and buggy days would have been a lot cleaner. We could skip the horse manure crisis of 1894 in New York City, where horses were producing 3 million pounds of horse shit every day. And 40,000 gallons of piss, every day. [The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894 - by Dan Szczesny (substack.com)](https://danszczesny.substack.com/p/the-great-horse-manure-crisis-of) ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/43 "2024-06-06T03:26:52Z")
Crowds at the Kentucky Derby would be much smaller. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/44 "2024-06-06T08:57:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Zebras may look like horses but personality/mentally they are very far from them. Traits that make horses tamable - living in relatively small herds, dominance/heirarchy structure, etc. - are entirely absent in zebras. Zebras do not live in families and herd members basically don’t give a damn about each other. They hang out in herds because of safety in numbers but there’s no leader and nothing like a social structure. In addition, aren’t zebras also surprisingly short-tempered and aggressive when approached ? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/45 "2024-06-06T10:38:54Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > In addition, aren’t zebras also surprisingly short-tempered and aggressive when approached ? Yes: [“Zebras are also notoriously difficult to catch. They have evolved superb early-warning mechanisms , such as peripheral vision far superior to other horses. Often bad tempered, they grow increasingly antisocial with age and once they bite, they tend not to let go. A kick from a zebra can kill — and these creatures are responsible for more injuries to American zookeepers”](https://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/zebra.html) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/46 "2024-06-06T11:05:23Z")
My gf would have hundreds of thousands of dollars not spent on hay, feed, farrier, veterinary bills, etc. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/47 "2024-06-06T11:27:33Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > . Other animals can be ridden but only the horse can be made into cavalry. Elephants? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/48 "2024-06-06T11:52:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > My gf would have hundreds of thousands of dollars not spent on hay, feed, farrier, veterinary bills, etc. If a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money, a horse is an industrial grade cash mulching machine. It would be cheaper to make an animatronic horse with a _papier-mâché_ body formed with $100 bills than to keep a live horse fed and stabled. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/49 "2024-06-06T12:08:01Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I think the most important historic use of horses was in warfare. The [horse collar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar#Impact_of_the_horse_collar) was not nothing. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/50 "2024-06-06T15:22:47Z")
Be on the lookout for this PBS program, it’s excellent. > **[Collections | Nature | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/collections/equus-story-horse/)** > > Travel around the world to uncover the history of mankind’s relationship with the horse. Discover the habits and biology of these majestic animals and why some 400 breeds are thriving today. Featuring anthropologist Niobe Thompson. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/51 "2024-06-06T15:31:29Z")
That and the Nova companion episode were quite good. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/52 "2024-06-06T16:47:34Z")
While horses have some unique features as utility animals humans weren’t dependent on them to survive outside of cultures that developed on their availability. If other useful animals weren’t available to ride or pull then we would have seen advances in transportation sooner in history. We’d probably have more dams, canals, and locks built to increase waterway capacity along with development in boat technology. Better roads to allow humans to pull carts more readily would have developed. Probably more use of pulleys and counterweights for pulling loads uphill. Plowing would be a problem. Maybe ropes and geared windlasses would be used to pull plows across fields. Mobile windmills could have been developed for such purposes. The same technology could be put to use pulling boats on waterways. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/53 "2024-06-06T16:58:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Better roads to allow humans to pull carts more readily would have developed. It makes for speculation how the slave trade may have been different. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/54 "2024-06-06T17:11:12Z")
> **[Humans didn't domesticate horses until 4,200 years ago — a millennium later...](https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-didnt-domesticate-horses-until-4200-years-ago-a-millennium-later-than-thought)** > > Ancient DNA of nearly 500 horses reveals that humans didn't domesticate them until 2200 B.C., 1,000 years later than we previously thought. Anyone know how humanity was doing in 2200 B.C.? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/55 "2024-06-06T17:26:29Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [Humans didn't domesticate horses until 4,200 years ago — a millennium later than thought | Live Science](https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-didnt-domesticate-horses-until-4200-years-ago-a-millennium-later-than-thought) > > Anyone know how humanity was doing in 2200 B.C.? From the article: > While it remains somewhat a mystery why humans did not domesticate horses until well after other animals, like dogs, sheep, cattle, and even donkeys, once they did, humans were very soon taking horses with them almost everywhere they went. It seems fairly obvious that humans simply captured wild horses. Similar to how elephants were obtained for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/56 "2024-06-06T17:26:40Z")
The horse collar made it possible for horses to pull plows and other heavy non-wheeled objects (like logs for lumber), but oxen, which work well with a yoke, were still the pulling animal of choice for most. They are considerable safer than horses, which panic easily. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/57 "2024-06-06T17:27:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Plowing would be a problem. Oxen and water buffalo pull plows just fine. Horses _with horse collars_ are faster at it, is all. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/58 "2024-06-06T17:32:32Z")
I was assuming tamable cattle weren’t available. If that doesn’t rule out elephants they could pull plows though, and plenty of other pulling tasks when a large animal wasn’t a problem. Elephants could certainly turn a windlass to use ropes to pull loads. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/59 "2024-06-06T17:33:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It seems fairly obvious that humans simply captured wild horses. Similar to how elephants were obtained for a long time. In Mongolia horses are used in a manner which seems to me to be clearly close to the original – herds of loose horses graze at will around a nomadic encampment, and when someone wants to ride one, they just rope it and get on. When they’re done, they get off. About that complicated. Of course the person needs to be skilled, but that would be a main thing to master in that community. This isn’t particularly different than the American Plains natives (and cowboys), who developed their methods independently from Mongolia and each other. Horses are fundamentally creatures of the steppe and prairie. Also domesticated elephants are still captured wild. They do not breed well in captivity. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/60 "2024-06-06T17:34:30Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > oxen, which work well with a yoke, were still the pulling animal of choice for most. Not in England and other parts of Europe. That’s why the coming of the horse collar contributed to the death of feudalism. Sure, oxen were still the choice for slow and steady, like ox-wagons. I know this went on well into the 1800s[. I know it very well.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Trek) But oxen don’t pull stagecoaches, omnibuses or narrowboats, or free some peasants to become bourgeoisie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525.md?page=4)