# Where would humanity be if horses were never a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525 "2024-06-05T18:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/81 "2024-06-06T20:07:02Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > AIUI, a type of horse evolved in North America but disappeared around the time humans arrived. _Equus scotti_, went extinct around 12000 years ago. Humans arrived some 16000- 20000 or more years ago. It may not have been easily domesticated. It may have looked like _E. przewalskii_ which generally cant be tamed. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/82 "2024-06-06T21:00:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It may have looked like _E. przewalskii_ which generally cant be tamed. _Ephedra przewalskii_ is a plant species; I assume you are referring to [Przewalski’s Horse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski's_horse), which can be trained to accept a rider but because of its smaller size and difficulty breeding in captivity are inferior to the domesticated horse (_Equus ferus caballus_). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/83 "2024-06-06T22:25:25Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Doesn’t sound much different from wild horses to me. Especially a wild horse from the era when domestication was first attempted. No, Zebras are far less tameable than horses. There are real reasons why only a handful of animals became domesticates, and none of the myriads of others that humans were in direct contact with, over thousands of years. It’s because very few animals CAN be reliably domesticated. I feel pretty confident that almost every animal was tried out for partnership with people at some point. We had all the time in the world to do this, and many animals are easy to tame as babies – though few will stay that way past puberty. But domestication is a whole other level. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/84 "2024-06-06T23:28:28Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _Ephedra przewalskii_ is a plant species; The E. stands for Equus, we were talking about horses, not plants. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/85 "2024-06-07T02:28:19Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > No, Zebras are far less tameable than horses. Not to mention… 450 Horsepower sounds way cooler than 450 Zebrapower. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/86 "2024-06-07T09:25:51Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > Not to mention… 450 Horsepower sounds way cooler than 450 Zebrapower. That’s like just your opinion man. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/87 "2024-06-07T11:34:54Z")
With all the discussion of animal substitutes, I’m more curious about the effects on human beings themselves and their societies. As has been noted, oxen are fine for pulling carts, grinding-wheels, and the like but horses are fast. Without horses, empires and other polities wouldn’t have had horse relays for fast communication. They would have to rely for speed on post-runners, like the horseless Inca except carrying parchment, papyrus, or paper with writing rather than quipu. And when governments depend on something, they incentivize it. “Good pay for wiry but fit men with excellent stamina for his majesty’s postal service!” Lots of running competitions with cash and other lucrative prizes (for punters to bet on too in the absence of horse races). If there’s public or common education, running will be a major emphasis in the schools. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/88 "2024-06-07T12:52:57Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > No, Zebras are far less tameable than horses. There are real reasons why only a handful of animals became domesticates, and none of the myriads of others that humans were in direct contact with, over thousands of years. It’s because very few animals CAN be reliably domesticated. I feel pretty confident that almost every animal was tried out for partnership with people at some point. We had all the time in the world to do this, and many animals are easy to tame as babies – though few will stay that way past puberty. But domestication is a whole other level. Well… we say that NOW, in a world where horses exist. How hard did we really try to domesticate zebras other than “let’s give this a go and see if it can be done like horses”. In a world where zebras exist but horses didn’t, there may have been enough incentive to make it work. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/89 "2024-06-07T13:16:44Z")
Maybe. But I look at it this way - people and zebras coexisted, and assume someone probably thought “hey, it would be cool to ride one of those!” Maybe they tried to tame an orphaned baby zebra and it didn’t work. Maybe they tried capturing an adult and hopping on, with disastrous results, and just gave-up on the enterprise. Meanwhile, the same process was happening with the people and horses on the central Asian steppe. For some reason, those people and those horses were able to work it out. All I am saying is everyone who lived around equids likely had the same motivation and the same amount of time to figure out how to ride them, but only one situation succeeded. Assuming all the people have the same motivation, ISTM the only difference is the animal, and something about the central Asian horse lent them to be domesticated where all other equids failed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/90 "2024-06-07T13:24:06Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sitting on an animal’s back doesn’t mean you’re riding it like a horse. Horses walk twice as fast as cows, you’re not going to keep a cow at brisk gait, you’re certainly not going to jump an obstacle on a cow, etc. That sort of ignores that for a lot reasons we use horses neither speed nor jumping are required. You don’t want either in pack animals or draft animals pulling loads. For that matter, oxen were used alongside of horses for thousands of years for pulling loads. Until the giant draft horse breeds were created - which were a fairly late development in history - oxen were preferred for heavy loads because they could pull more. Even so - while cattle are not as fast as horses they _are_ faster than humans, which might be the important factor. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Thomas McGuane opined that the only reason we ride horses is that dogs are too small. Even so - dogsleds are a thing. We can’t ride dogs but we nonetheless have used them for transporation. Goats are another animal that have been used as pack animals and to pull carts and wagons. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > A few things had to be invented before they became large-scale weapons of war, like stirrups and horse shoes. Prior to stirrups horses were used in war to draw chariots. Ancient Egyptian murals are full of images of that sort of thing. Stirrups allow for the invention of cavalry, which were revolutionary in their time just like the introduction of iron tools in place of bronze. The invention of horse shoes - which actually date back to the Bronze Age - greatly increased the utility of horses because it prevented a lot of foot problems that barefoot working horses would incur. Keep in mind that domestic horses from 5,000 years ago were not the specialized breeds of today. Back then horses were smaller - borderline ponies by today’s definitions. They couldn’t carry as much. They weren’t as fast. We didn’t have thoroughbreds. We didn’t have any of the big draft breeds. We didn’t have draft ponies, either, like Shetland ponies. > [@Moonrise](#): > > In addition, aren’t zebras also surprisingly short-tempered and aggressive when approached ? Yes. They’re basically paranoid and vicious. > [@Pleonast](#): > > From the article: > > > While it remains somewhat a mystery why humans did not domesticate horses until well after other animals, like dogs, sheep, cattle, and even donkeys, once they did, humans were very soon taking horses with them almost everywhere they went. A modern, fully domesticated horse is still an animal big and strong enough to hurt, maim, or kill you _by accident_. Taming a wild horse - even a feral horse - is not necessarily an obvious choice. Especially since they (apparently) make good eating. I find it easy to imagine ancient people regarding horses more as food than as potential transportation. Stallions - which are required for breeding - are more hazardous to handle than mares or geldings. Not impossible, of course - lots of people own and ride stallions. But they are more aggressive than the other two categories. I wouldn’t be surprised if capturing young horses was a thing for a long while rather than controlled breeding, with mares favored for ease of handling. > [@Railer13](#): > > Native Americans, both North and South, didn’t have horses until Europeans brought them in the 1500s. The history of the Americas would probably have been much different had horses been native to the region. Horses _were_ native to the Americas - that is where they first evolved. It’s just that when humans arrived they _ate_ the wild horses, they didn’t tame and ride them. Horses became extinct in the Americas, leaving only the populations in Eurasia to be eventually domesticated. Taming/riding horses might seem obvious to us, especially given the taboo against eating them in most of North America, but clearly that’s not a universal sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/91 "2024-06-07T13:34:19Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A modern, fully domesticated horse is still an animal big and strong enough to hurt, maim, or kill you _by accident_. Taming a wild horse - even a feral horse - is not necessarily an obvious choice. Especially since they (apparently) make good eating. I believe that’s why horses were originally domesticated - for their meat and milk. If I remember, the second time they were domesticated, their ability to work was then taken advantage of. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/92 "2024-06-07T13:42:14Z")
Individual zebras can and have been trained. Domestication goes far beyond that. Horses can be contained in minimal corrals they can easily escape from but don’t. I don’t think that will work with zebras, though IANA zebra behavioral expert. Horses once accustomed to humans will not generally attack them, and will seek out their company. People who keep miniature horses will bring them into their homes and let them get on the furniture like pet dogs. Wild horses take some effort to break while horses raised around humans much less so. Zebras not so much I think, though again IANAZBE. There is more to domestication than training and acclimation. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/93 "2024-06-07T13:51:44Z")
Anyone have an opinion on the caprines? _Ovis aries_ and _Capra hircus_ are too small to ride, but there are other species in the tribe that are much larger. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/94 "2024-06-07T13:58:34Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > caprines _Capra hircus_ are domesticated goats. Varieties of goat have been used to pull carts and as pack animals. They would have been one of the alternatives to horses for those purposes. Riding is the difficult utility to replace. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/95 "2024-06-07T14:43:19Z")
Without horses there’d be no **westerns** no John Wayne Clint Eastwood or Gary cooper. Try getting _the Duke_ to ride a goat? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/96 "2024-06-07T15:04:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Horses _were_ native to the Americas - that is where they first evolved. It’s just that when humans arrived they _ate_ the wild horses, they didn’t tame and ride them. Horses became extinct in the Americas, leaving only the populations in Eurasia to be eventually domesticated. Not so sure about that. There were in fact many different species of horses in the Americas, but my understanding is that all of them were extinct before humans arrived. The current science is that (probably) most of the megafauna in the Americas were not, as previously believed, killed by humans during the Quaternary Extinction, but by climatic changes. The two events did overlap in places but not wholly. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/97 "2024-06-07T15:13:57Z")
Once again, I will repeat that _domestication is a very rare event in all of human prehistory_. With the exception of the dog, which it is now believed domesticated itself, some 20,000 years before any other animals were, domestication is a very late phenomenon. The oldest domesticate other than the dog is the goat, approximately 10,000 years ago. Horses are far more recent. Humans lived in much closer proximity and with far greater understanding of animals than we do/have, for oh, two MILLION years. There should be a name for the ubiquitous modern fallacy that we are so much smarter and more inventive than any generation before us. It’s not that these other animals were foolishly overlooked as possibilities. They simply were not good candidates, just as they aren’t now. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/98 "2024-06-07T15:15:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > while cattle are not as fast as horses they _are_ faster than humans, which might be the important factor. Cattle walk at about 2mph, humans at 3mph (horses at 4mph). That’s average speeds, all can obviously move faster if they need to. The main benefit to riding cattle like a horse would be more stamina than you have and not having to wear out your boots. I never debated that we’d still be using oxen for plowing and carts, etc (the complete opposite, in fact) so nothing to add there. I just said that we don’t have an equivalent replacement to riding horses, 'cause we don’t. Camels come closest but with obvious disadvantages. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Once again, I will repeat that _domestication is a very rare event in all of human prehistory_. Agreed with all of this post but adding that domestication and tameness can be two different things. Individual caribou or elephants, for example, might be tamed to accept a rider but caribou and elephants as a whole are not domesticated animals and any tameness is often on a very one-on-one basis with specific people. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/99 "2024-06-07T15:35:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even so - while cattle are not as fast as horses they _are_ faster than humans, which might be the important factor. But look at the backs of horses and of cattle. Which would you rather sit on without a saddle? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525/100 "2024-06-07T15:36:25Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > The main benefit to riding cattle like a horse would be more stamina than you have and not having to wear out your boots. Surprisingly, humans have more stamina than many animals. See [persistence hunting.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) There is an [annual horse versus human race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon) over 22 miles and while the horse usually wins a few times humans have won and either way the times are surprisingly close. Horses are clearly of benefit in many ways to humans but if you just wanted to get from A → B I think it was more laziness for humans. Why walk if you can ride? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-humanity-be-if-horses-were-never-a-thing/1002525.md?page=6)