# Where would the Nazis test an atomic bomb?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 7, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792 "2010-11-07T13:58:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)
#### Post date: [September 19, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/61 "2012-09-19T21:04:24Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> I was once very critical myself of Karlsh’s book until I bothered to research the nuclear physics involved. Once I understood how it was done it became very clear how the simplicity of the German bomb simplified for the nazis the whole process of obtaining fissile material. They did not need an enrichment project on the scale of Manhattan, because they developed a bomb only requiring 150 grams of Uranium 233.
I’m no nuclear physicist but according to Wikipedia the critical mass of U-233 is about 50% higher than for Pu-239. Again from Wikipedia, the critical mass of Pu-239 is about 11kg, although that can be reduced by half with very advanced methods, which I somehow doubt that WW2 Germany had access to.
So we’re talking a critical mass of around 16-17kg of U-233, I’m sure that physicists the world over would be fascinated to hear how the Nazis got this down to 150 grams.
> **[Plutonium-239](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium-239)**
>
> Plutonium-239 (239Pu or Pu-239) is an isotope of plutonium. Plutonium-239 is the primary fissile isotope used for the production of nuclear weapons, although uranium-235 is also used for that purpose. Plutonium-239 is also one of the three main isotopes demonstrated usable as fuel in thermal spectrum nuclear reactors, along with uranium-235 and uranium-233. Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,110 years.
> The nuclear properties of plutonium-239, as well as the ability to produce large amounts of ...
> **[Uranium-233](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-233)**
>
> Uranium-233 (233U or U-233) is a fissile isotope of uranium that is bred from thorium-232 as part of the thorium fuel cycle. Uranium-233 was investigated for use in nuclear weapons and as a reactor fuel. It has been used successfully in experimental nuclear reactors and has been proposed for much wider use as a nuclear fuel. It has a half-life of 160,000 years.
> Uranium-233 is produced by the neutron irradiation of thorium-232. When thorium-232 absorbs a neutron, it becomes thorium-233, which h...
Do you have any reputable cites for the USA or Churchill threatening Hitler over his nuclear program or use of atomic weapons?
Honestly, a lot of this strikes me as about as creditable as “The Philadelphia Experiment”.
---
### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [September 19, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/62 "2012-09-19T22:49:08Z")
> [@Valgard](#):
>
> . . . Honestly, a lot of this strikes me as about as creditable as “The Philadelphia Experiment”.
Heck, at least the Philadelphia Experiment legend seems to have been based on real events: the de-gaussing of U.S. Navy ships to reduce their chances of detonating magnetically-triggered mines. The fantasies being promoted in this thread don’t even seem to have that much real-world basis.
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### Author:  [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/63 "2012-09-20T00:08:55Z")
> [@Valgard](#):
>
> I’m no nuclear physicist but according to Wikipedia the critical mass of U-233 is about 50% higher than for Pu-239. Again from Wikipedia, the critical mass of Pu-239 is about 11kg, although that can be reduced by half with very advanced methods, which I somehow doubt that WW2 Germany had access to.
>
> So we’re talking a critical mass of around 16-17kg of U-233, I’m sure that physicists the world over would be fascinated to hear how the Nazis got this down to 150 grams.
The book that coremelt linked to says that the Germans planned to use heavy water to supply excess neutrons that made a smaller mass able to reach a critical chain reaction. (Supposedly this is because the Germans were sure they could build a bomb, but not sure they could build a reactor. Which makes as much - or little - sense as anything else claimed so far.)
I’ve downloaded the book for later reading. If I pretend it’s Harry Turtledove’s research notes, it could be quite entertaining.
---
### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/64 "2012-09-20T02:52:25Z")
> [@AndrewL](#):
>
> No, it isn’t. Each element has its own unique emission spectrum. Lithium (element 3) has no emission lines in the blue part of the spectrum. Sodium (element 11) has a single very strong emission line in yellow. On the other hand, Copper (element 29) has some very strong emission lines in blue and green. You can’t simply say “Glows, blue, therefore light element” - it doesn’t work that way at all.
>
> See here for the actual spectrum for each element:
>
> [http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm](http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm)
It was never in dispute that the first 19 elements also emit other colours.
You are selectively misquoting me. I said that blue floresence was characteristic of the first 19 elements. Since there is no suggestion that the nazis used either sodium or copper in their atomic bomb at Rugen you are simply throwing a red herring.
Yes it does work that way because it excludes spectral emissions from transuranics in the mushroom cloud and suggests the presence of strong emissions from ionised lithium.
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/65 "2012-09-20T03:01:21Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> Yes it does work that way because it excludes spectral emissions from transuranics in the mushroom cloud and suggests the presence of strong emissions from ionised lithium.
You are taking a dubious observation from a single, uncorroborated “witness,” who may not have seen anything at all, but just made it up, analyzing his eyeball “observation” to the n-th degree as to colors and spectrum, deducing that what he “saw” as an unknown kind of explosion that reminds you (but nobody else) of another kind of explosion, then telling us 70 years later that the Nazis had a secret weapon of which no known record exists and all evidence suggests never it did?
Pardon me if I don’t put much credence in your dreams.
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### Author:  [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/66 "2012-09-20T03:09:22Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> You are selectively misquoting me. I said that blue floresence was characteristic of the first 19 elements.
Except it isn’t. There are plenty of heavier elements that produce emission lines in the blue parts of the spectrum, and several among the first 19 that don’t.
> [@](#):
>
> Yes it does work that way because it excludes spectral emissions from transuranics in the mushroom cloud and suggests the presence of strong emissions from ionised lithium.
Lithium doesn’t have any emission line in the blue part of the spectrum. Take a look at [http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm](http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm) if you don’t believe me. You can also take a look at [Flame test - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test) which shows a picture of the nice red color of ionized lithium. There are, on the other hand, several transuranics which do have emission lines in the blue part of the spectrum, although I haven’t been able to find any pictures of someone doing a flame test with uranium or plutonium.
Of course, it’s kind of a moot point, since in any nuclear energy the mass of the fuel used is going to be small and spread widely thoughout the fireball, and won’t be contributing much to the color. Most of what you’ll be seeing is thermal emission from the superheated air and ionization of the air itself.
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### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/67 "2012-09-22T01:46:12Z")
> [@AndrewL](#):
>
> Except it isn’t. There are plenty of heavier elements that produce emission lines in the blue parts of the spectrum, and several among the first 19 that don’t.
>
> Lithium doesn’t have any emission line in the blue part of the spectrum. Take a look at [http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm](http://profmokeur.ca/chemistry/spectemien.htm) if you don’t believe me. You can also take a look at [Flame test - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test) which shows a picture of the nice red color of ionized lithium. There are, on the other hand, several transuranics which do have emission lines in the blue part of the spectrum, although I haven’t been able to find any pictures of someone doing a flame test with uranium or plutonium.
>
> Of course, it’s kind of a moot point, since in any nuclear energy the mass of the fuel used is going to be small and spread widely thoughout the fireball, and won’t be contributing much to the color. Most of what you’ll be seeing is thermal emission from the superheated air and ionization of the air itself.
I said “characteristic” are you a native English speaker?
I don’t need any proof of Lithium emission.
The Schumann Trinks weapon described in their 42 wartime patents compressed Lithium 6 with Deuterium under massive pressures and temperatures crushed by opposing hollow charge explosives.
Li6 + D = He4 + 22.4 MeV and ionised Helium is a strong blue emitter.
---
### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/68 "2012-09-22T02:02:06Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> You are taking a dubious observation from a single, uncorroborated “witness,” who may not have seen anything at all, but just made it up, analyzing his eyeball “observation” to the n-th degree as to colors and spectrum, deducing that what he “saw” as an unknown kind of explosion that reminds you (but nobody else) of another kind of explosion, then telling us 70 years later that the Nazis had a secret weapon of which no known record exists and all evidence suggests never it did?
>
> Pardon me if I don’t put much credence in your dreams.
You amuse me Musicat on the V2 thread you said you were going to ignore me, yet you are back here replying again. Pretty hard to argue with someone when you’re ignoring them.
\*\*Zinsser’s credibility \*\*
You say Zinsser’s account is an uncorroborated claim and that this man was lying…so what proof do you have of that?
You provide not one shred of credible evidence this man lied, nor even why he should have lied?
As I noted previously Zinsser did not make the claim publicly for adulation, fame, or reward, so what motive would he have and what proof have you got?
If he was a man without credibility then why was his report treated credible enough by US Naval Intelligence to require top secret classification for decades after the War?
**Zinsser Affidavit**
The United States Government was unwilling to declassify its’ file about the German Atomic bomb. Instead author David Irving obtained copies of so called G-papers in personal possession of Samuel Goudsmit and other’s laying neglected in a disused warehouse at Oak Ridge Tennessee.
Irving published classified matters about the German Atomic Bomb project forcing the UK Government to declassify its’ files, including UK copies of the Zinsser affidavit.
(see Virus House by David Irving, pub 1967, Author’s introduction page VII)
It is also worth noting that when the US Government announced the declassification and disclosure of all papers it held on Germany’s atomic Bomb project, whether deliberately or not, this was not the whole truth.
When the KGB released its’ G papers from the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (KWG) in 2005 there were many, many more German nuclear research reports released by the Russians than had ever been acknowledged in the west. The KWG was not in charge of the German atomic bomb project. It was only a civil research arm of German efforts, so it will be interesting to see what else emerges when, or even if, Heereswaffenamt papers on the German A-bomb are ever released?
In actual fact, Zinsser was interrogated by a German speaking US Intelligence officer named Captain Helenes T. Freiberger and it was Freiberger himself who signed the affidavit concerning his interview with Zinsser and with three other Nazi scientists involved in Atomic weapons testing.
So are you now suggesting Freiberger who was a professional intelligence officer interrogating Prisoners for Allied armed forces was lying?
Oh sorry, I forget you can’t reply because you’re ignoring me.
**Corroboration #1:**
Eyewitness Luigi Romersa gave interviews on the topic in 2005, how he was sent by Mussolini to witness an atomic bomb test on 12 October 1944.
**Corroboration #2:**
Japanese military VIPs witnessed the Rugen tests and reported the results back to Tokyo by encrypted diplomatic signals. These were intercepted by British and US signals intelligence who decrypted and translated them back to English.
The MAGIC decrypt of a wartime diplomatic signal from the Japanese embassy in Sweden, cited as "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, SRA 14628-32, declassified by US National Security Agency, October 1, 1978.
> [@](#):
>
> This bomb is revolutionary in its results, and will completely upset all ordinary precepts of warfare hitherto established. I am sending you, in one group, all those reports on what is called the atom- splitting bomb. It is a fact that in June of 1943, the German Army tried out an utterly new type of weapon against the Russians at a location 150 kilometres southeast of Kursk.
>
> Although it was the entire 19th Infantry Regiment of the Russians [19th Vorezneh Rifles Division] which was thus attacked, only a few bombs (each round up to 5 kilograms) sufficed to utterly wipe them out to the last man.
>
> The following is according to a statement by Lieutenant Colonel… Kenji, adviser to the attaché in Hungary and formerly… in this country, who by chance saw the actual scene immediately after the above took place:
>
> “All the men and the horses [within radius of] the explosion of the shells were charred black and even their ammunition had all been detonated. Moreover, it is a fact that the same type of war material was tried out in the Crimea too. At that time the Russians claimed that this was poison gas, and protested that if Germany were ever again to use it, Russia, too, would use poison gas.”
>
> … Recently the British authorities warned their people of the possibility that they might undergo attack by German atom- splitting bombs. The American authorities have likewise warned that the American east coast might be the area chosen for a blind attack by some sort of flying bomb…
>
> The Japanese report then goes into a remarkably accurate description of the splitting of the atom, ending with the statement,
>
> “[T]he German atom-splitting device is the Neuman disintegrator. Enormous energy is directed into the central part of the atom and this generates an atomic pressure of several tens of thousands of tons per square inch. This device can split the relatively unstable atoms of such elements as uranium. Moreover, it brings into being a store of explosive atomic energy… That is, a bomb deriving its force from the release of atomic energy.”
**Corroboration #3:**
Report by Daily Mail 11 October 1944 of 60 hour black out of Berlin following an earlier series of similar black outs and electromagnetic interference knocking out communications.
For anyone genuinely interested, there is cause to believe the test blast witnessed by Romersa on 12 October 1944 was only one of a series. It is likely Zinsser witnessed a test blast on or about the night of 8/9 October although Zinsser gives no specific date other than October.
**Corroboration #4:**
Elevated levels of the artificially created isotope Caesium 137 and its’ decay product Barium 137 have been found at Bug Isthmus on the island of Rugen. These radio-nuclides were found in 52 samples taken between 2002-2003. Caesium 137 traces were not found however in conjunction with evidence of Caesium 135 tending to rule out contamination by nuclear reactor waste products, such as Chernobyl fall out etc.
Caesium 137 occurs from nuclear explosions and also from nuclear reactors, however nuclear reactor waste would be expected to reveal evidence of other indicators which are missing from Rugen.
**Corroboration #5:**
Bern OSS Cable No.2877 December 21 1944, from OSS station chief Sam Woods to Secretary of State Cordell Hull “IN 29784” discussing German “Atomic explosion” research “vigorously” pursued by the SS Technical Academy Zellindorf.
**Corroboration #6:**
A report issued by COMNAVEU London on 25 January 1946 by Captain R.F. Hickey, USN, and entitled 'Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb,” parts of which are still classified top secret today.
The six page Zinsser affidavit marked “SECRET” is only one part of the overall report, but the affidavit also refers to interrogation of three scientists besides Zinsser about German atomic weapons testing, therefore it was not just Zinsser’s account, but part of an interrogation of four distinct individuals about the same tests. (NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c) …NARA = US National Archives Records Administration
Cited in his book “The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in World War II” by Manfred Griehl.
**Corroboration #7:**
Ribbentrop, Hitler and Keitel met with Romanian Marshal Antonescu on 5 August 1944 at the Wolf’s Lair. Hitler told Antonescu of Germany’s atomic bomb. Within a month of this conference Romania was in Communist hands and Antonescu became a prisoner of the Soviets facing War Crimes prosecution. Once captured and questioned, Antonescu quoted Hitler. He said Hitler described Germany’s latest work on…
\*\*“…new explosives, whose development was already advanced to the experimental stage.” \*\*
Hitler confided his view that the jump from modern explosives to this one was
**“the biggest since gunpowder.”**
Then Hitler explained the difficulty with all new weapons was the same. He had ordered therefore that no new weapon was to be employed until Germany had herself developed measures counter to it. For this reason Hitler explained, a new type of mine they had developed could still not be employed. The Fuhrer added Germany had four secret weapons. Of these the V-1 flying bomb and the V-2 rocket were only two. In a clear reference to a nuclear weapon Hitler said;
**“Another of these weapons for example, has such colossal force that all human life is destroyed within three to four kilometres of the point of impact.”**
Hitler was aware Antonescu was in talks with Opposition forces in Romania who had direct contact with London. Hitler wanted London to learn of his nuclear capability.
**Inconvenient Facts**
So to anyone who insists there is no corroboration for Zinsser’s claims those persons can only claim this by ignoring a variety of other facts which they find inconvenient.
---
### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/69 "2012-09-22T02:22:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> You are taking a dubious observation from a single, uncorroborated “witness,” who may not have seen anything at all, but just made it up, analyzing his eyeball “observation” to the n-th degree as to colors and spectrum, deducing that what he “saw” as an unknown kind of explosion that reminds you (but nobody else) of another kind of explosion, then telling us 70 years later that the Nazis had a secret weapon of which no known record exists and all evidence suggests never it did?
>
> Pardon me if I don’t put much credence in your dreams.
I’ll go one further: I don’t believe this witness exists, or that NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c exists. Try googling ‘NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c’, you’ll find the only references to such a document in posts by tazjet throughout the internet, and absolutely no proof of its existence aside from his repeated claims that it exists.
---
### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/70 "2012-09-22T02:37:59Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> The United States Government was unwilling to declassify its’ file about the German Atomic bomb. Instead author David Irving obtained copies of so called G-papers in personal possession of Samuel Goudsmit and other’s laying neglected in a disused warehouse at Oak Ridge Tennessee.
>
> Irving published classified matters about the German Atomic Bomb project forcing the UK Government to declassify its’ files, including UK copies of the Zinsser affidavit.
> (see Virus House by David Irving, pub 1967, Author’s introduction page VII).
Oh, and for those unfamiliar with who David Irving is I’ll repeat what I said in another thread:
> [@The German A-Bomb Project: How Far Did They Get?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-german-a-bomb-project-how-far-did-they-get/251217/23):
>
> Ah, David Irving, a man of unimpeachable devotion to the truth. Oh wait, I mean David Irving, author of [Hitler’s War](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Hitler.27s_War) in 1977:
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Irving’s intention in Hitler’s War to clean away the “years of grime and discoloration from the facade of a silent and forbidding monument” to reveal the real Hitler, whose reputation Irving claimed had been slandered by historians.
>
> David Irving who wrote [On the Trail of the Fox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Irving.27s_work_of_the_late_1970s_and_early_1980s) in 1978:
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Irving published The Trail of the Fox, a biography of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. In it, Irving attacked the members of the 20 July Plot to assassinate Hitler, branding them “traitors”, “cowards”, and “manipulators”, and uncritically presented Hitler and his government’s subsequent revenge against the plotters, of which Rommel was also a victim. In particular, Irving accused Rommel’s friend and Chief of Staff General Hans Speidel of framing Rommel in the attempted coup. The British historian David Pryce-Jones in a book review of The Trail of the Fox in the 12 November 1977 edition of The New York Times Book Review accused Irving of taking everything Hitler had to say at face value.
>
> David Irving who played a major role in the [Hitler’s Diary hoax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Hitler_Diaries):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > In 1983, Irving played a major role in the Hitler Diaries hoax. Irving had long been an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia, and in October 1982 purchased 800 pages of documents relating to Hitler, only to discover that many of the documents were forgeries.[46] Irving was an early proponent of the argument that the diaries were a forgery, and went so far as to crash the press conference held by Hugh Trevor-Roper at the Hamburg offices of Der Stern magazine on 25 April 1983 to denounce the diaries as a forgery and Trevor-Roper for endorsing the diaries as genuine (Trevor-Roper had called the press conference to announce his withdrawal of his endorsement).
> > …
> > A week later on 2 May, Irving reversed himself and asserted that the diaries were genuine; at the same press conference, Irving took the opportunity to promote his translation of the memoirs of Hitler’s physician Dr. Theodor Morell.[49] Robert Harris, in his book Selling Hitler, suggested that an additional reason for Irving’s change of mind over the authenticity of the alleged Hitler diaries was that the fake diaries contain no reference to the Holocaust, thereby buttressing Irving’s claim in Hitler’s War that Hitler had no knowledge of it.[51] Subsequently Irving made another U-turn when the diaries were revealed as a forgery. At a press conference held to withdraw his endorsement of the diaries, Irving proudly claimed that he was the first to call them a forgery, to which a reporter replied that he was also the last to call them genuine.
>
> David Irving who in 1988 started openly espousing [Holocaust denial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Movement_towards_Holocaust_denial):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Over the years, Irving’s stance on the Holocaust changed significantly. From 1988, he started to espouse Holocaust denial openly; he had previously not denied the Holocaust outright and for this reason, many Holocaust deniers were ambivalent about him.
>
> David Irving who started doing the [neo-Nazi circuit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#The_Holocaust_denial_lecture_circuit):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > In the early 1990s, Irving was a frequent visitor to Germany, where he spoke at neo-Nazi rallies.[63] The chief themes of Irving’s German speeches were that the Allies and Axis states were equally culpable for war crimes, that the decision of Neville Chamberlain to declare war on Germany in 1939, and that of Winston Churchill to continue the war in 1940, had been great mistakes that set Britain on a path of decline, and the Holocaust was just a “propaganda exercise”.
>
> David Irving who was declare [persona non grata](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Persona_non_grata) in Austria for Holocaust denial:
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > After Irving denied the Holocaust in two 1989 speeches given in Austria, the Austrian government issued an arrest warrant against him and barred him from entering the country.[94] In early 1992 a German court found him guilty of Holocaust denial under the Auschwitzlüge section of the law against Volksverhetzung (a failed appeal by Irving would see the fine rise from 10,000 DM to 30,000 DM), and he was subsequently barred from entering Germany.[13] Other governments followed suit, including Austria, Italy and Canada,[95] where he was arrested in November 1992 and deported back to the United Kingdom.[13] In an administrative hearing surrounding those events, he was found by the hearing office to have engaged in a “total fabrication” in telling a story of an exit from and return to Canada which would, for technical reasons, have made the original deportation order invalid. He was also barred from entering Australia in 1992, a ban he made five unsuccessful attempts to overturn.
>
> David Irving who filed a [libel suit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Libel_suit)for being called a Holocaust denier against Deborah Lipstadt and her British publisher Penguin Books for publishing a British edition of Lipstadt’s book, Denying the Holocaust only to have it completely backfire on him with the judge finding that he was in fact a Holocaust denier, and to add insult to injury:
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Evans’ report was the most comprehensive, in-depth examination of Irving’s work:
> > Not one of [Irving’s] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. … if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian.[102]
> >
> > The BBC quoted Professor Evans further:-
> > Irving, (…) had deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics. (…) Irving has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary amongst historians that he does not deserve to be called a historian at all."
>
> Yes, quite an unimpeachable source you have there.
---
### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/71 "2012-09-22T02:48:45Z")
> [@Valgard](#):
>
> I’m no nuclear physicist but according to Wikipedia the critical mass of U-233 is about 50% higher than for Pu-239. Again from Wikipedia, the critical mass of Pu-239 is about 11kg, although that can be reduced by half with very advanced methods, which I somehow doubt that WW2 Germany had access to.
>
> So we’re talking a critical mass of around 16-17kg of U-233, I’m sure that physicists the world over would be fascinated to hear how the Nazis got this down to 150 grams.
>
> [Plutonium-239 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium-239)
> [Uranium-233 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-233)
>
> Do you have any reputable cites for the USA or Churchill threatening Hitler over his nuclear program or use of atomic weapons?
>
> Honestly, a lot of this strikes me as about as creditable as “The Philadelphia Experiment”.
No Valgard Uranium 233 has a “NATURAL CRITICAL MASS” of 11 kilograms
Bomb grade (ie 93%) Plutonium 239 as follows:
[ul]
[li]9kg bare mass[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]4.4kg with 10 cm U238 tamper[/li][/ul]
[ul]
[li]4.2kg with 10cm thick Be9 Reflector[/li][/ul]
It is a gem of a fissile material for bomb making because transmuted from Thorium 232 it results in isotopically pure U233.
When contaminated by Uranium 232 over time it becomes too dangerous to handle, however it can be bred without U232 contamination. This relates to Thorium which gains a double exposure to slow neutrons.
Getting back to your original point yes the Nazis were well aware of advanced techniques. The Monsanto Report for the Compton Committee (Manhattan Project) after the war made a summary assessment of Nazi nuclear know how from classified intelligence, interrogations etc. The Monsanto report warned the Compton Committee that in some ways the German were more advanced than the Manhattan Project and if the full scope of German nuclear know how were released any technically competent nation could produce their own nuclear weapons, thus recommended secrecy and non disclosure.
Enrico Fermi had a great deal of exposure to German thinking on the subject before emigrating to the United States.
In 1942 he urged to the Manhattan Project adoption of the external Plasma Pinch method for detonation of an Atomic Bomb. This was the same method which Nazi Germany adopted.
The Manhattan Project rejected the Plasma Pinch method as too technologically challenging and opted instead for the more arduous and conservative approach of attaining a natural critical mass. This required enrichment of huge amounts of uranium (Oak Ridge) and costly development of a nuclear pile (Hanford) for Plutonium.
Adding to the difficulties, Plutonium can’t be detonated by a simple gun barrel device like Uranium because the presence of Plutonium 240 creates an unpredictable risk of pre-detonation.
Thank you for being open and honest about not being a nuclear physicist. What you don’t fully understand is there is a difference between NATURAL CRITICAL MASS and CRITICALITY.
Let me explain… Natural critical mass for Uranium is a point at which neutron multiplication becomes spontaneous (2.5 x 10 24) That mass value is not fixed by varies according to other factors.
Heisenberg grappled with trying to understand this all through the war, yet the Nazi nuclear physicist Fritz Houtermanns published a paper correctly identifying the value for both Uranium 235 and Element 94 (Plutonium) in 1941.
Aspects which contribute to altering the mass value include:
Compression of a nuclear core
Tempreature of the core
Neutron density
Isotope purity
Tamper
For example with Uranium 235 the Critical mass is:
[ul]
[li]400kg at 20% enrichment[/li][li]64kg at 80% enrichment[/li][li]47.5kg at 93.5% enrichment [/li][li]18.4kg at 93.5% with a 10cm tamper[/li][li]14.1kg at 93.5% with a 10cm Beryllium reflector[/li][/ul]
Then you can ignite an explosion in an even smaller mass artificially by subjecting that mass to a neutron density replicating the effects of NATURAL CRITICAL MASS with an external plasma pinch.
After WW2 Sweden briefly considered becoming a nuclear armed power by developing nuclear weapons based on the plasma pinch method.
No not all information about WW2 is available on the internet. If you want to check out Churchill’s threat to use Anthrax you will have to read books.
German Nuclear scientist Dr Paul Harteck revealed this in his letters to author Joseph Borekin in 1974.
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### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/72 "2012-09-22T02:54:18Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Oh, and for those unfamiliar with who David Irving is I’ll repeat what I said in another thread:
Except you totally ignore that Irving repeats what Heisenberg himself was secretly recorded saying at Farm Hall in British internment.
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### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/73 "2012-09-22T02:55:56Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> I’ll go one further: I don’t believe this witness exists, or that NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c exists. Try googling ‘NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c’, you’ll find the only references to such a document in posts by tazjet throughout the internet, and absolutely no proof of its existence aside from his repeated claims that it exists.
You are entitled to your beliefs… Proves nothing except that you don’t believe it which is fairly self evident.
---
### Author:  [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/74 "2012-09-22T03:31:37Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> I said “characteristic” are you a native English speaker?
Yes, I am. Are you? The English word ‘blue’ does not describe the color which is emitted by ionized lithium. The color emitted by ionized lithium is generally described by the English word ‘red’. You don’t need to take my word for it. Do an image search for ‘lithium flame test’, or go to any college chemistry class and ask them to do a flame test with lithium salts for you.
> [@](#):
>
> Li6 + D = He4 + 22.4 MeV and ionised Helium is a strong blue emitter.
Citation required. Helium has strong emission lines in red, yellow, and blue, and every image I can find of ionized helium shows it to be a more orange color. For example, this image:
> **[File:Edelgase in Entladungsroehren.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edelgase_in_Entladungsroehren.jpg)**
shows all the noble gases ionized. Note that ionized helium is pink, while Xenon emits a nice blue color.
Furthermore, are you claiming that the helium generated will make up enough of the composition of the resulting fireball to significantly affect its color? Have you compared the mass of the helium generated to the mass of the entire volume of superheated air that makes up the fireball? The vast majority of the fireball is made up of air that’s been superheated by the gamma rays given off by the reaction, the mass of the materials that used to make up the bomb is going to be a tiny fraction of that.
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### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/75 "2012-09-22T03:45:30Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> Except you totally ignore that Irving repeats what Heisenberg himself was secretly recorded saying at Farm Hall in British internment.
No, you’re ignoring that Irving is a proven liar and notorious Holocaust denier who “Irving, (…) had deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics. (…) Irving has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary amongst historians that he does not deserve to be called a historian at all.”
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### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/76 "2012-09-22T03:48:56Z")
> [@AndrewL](#):
>
> Citation required. Helium has strong emission lines in red, yellow, and blue, and every image I can find of ionized helium shows it to be a more orange color. For example, this image:
A Picture speaks a thousand words in any language you chose.
[ ](https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/WW2/emissionspectra_zps9a4d5769.gif)
---
### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/77 "2012-09-22T03:51:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> No, you’re ignoring that Irving is a proven liar and notorious Holocaust denier who “Irving, (…) had deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics. (…) Irving has fallen so far short of the standards of scholarship customary amongst historians that he does not deserve to be called a historian at all.”
I am ignoring it because it is an irrelevance since he is not a primary source.
Big deal
---
### Author:  [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/78 "2012-09-22T03:54:43Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> A Picture speaks a thousand words in any language you chose.
>
> [http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/WW2/emissionspectra\_zps9a4d5769.gif](http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/727Kiwi/WW2/emissionspectra_zps9a4d5769.gif)
Yes, that picture agrees with what I said: Helium has emission lines in red, yellow, green, and blue. When ionized, these combine to make Helium glow an orange-pink color, as seen here:
> **[File:Edelgase in Entladungsroehren.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edelgase_in_Entladungsroehren.jpg)**
---
### Author:  [@tazjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazjet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/79 "2012-09-22T03:56:15Z")
> [@AndrewL](#):
>
> Yes, I am. Are you? The English word ‘blue’ does not describe the color which is emitted by ionized lithium. The color emitted by ionized lithium is generally described by the English word ‘red’. You don’t need to take my word for it. Do an image search for ‘lithium flame test’, or go to any college chemistry class and ask them to do a flame test with lithium salts for you.
You are flogging a dead horse. I mention Lithium because it is a component of the explosive warhead. Ionised Helium is the byproduct causing blue flashes which Zinsser witnessed.
> [@](#):
>
> Citation required. Helium has strong emission lines in red, yellow, and blue, and every image I can find of ionized helium shows it to be a more orange color.
Citaition for Li6 + Deuterium
> **[The Nuclear Weapon Archive - A Guide to Nuclear Weapons](https://nuclearweaponarchive.org/)**
---
### Author:  [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-the-nazis-test-an-atomic-bomb/559792/80 "2012-09-22T04:04:22Z")
> [@tazjet](#):
>
> You are flogging a dead horse. I mention Lithium because it is a component of the explosive warhead. Ionised Helium is the byproduct causing blue flashes which Zinsser witnessed.
And again: Ionized helium glows orange-pink, but more importantly, how can the few kilograms at most of helium generated in the reaction significantly effect the color of a nuclear fireball hundreds of feet wide at least? The helium’s going to be diluted tremendously by the air, and any ionization glow from the helium is going to be completely overwhelmed by the black-body radiation from the superheated air.
> [@](#):
>
> Citaition for Li6 + Deuterium
> [http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/](http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/)
I never disputed that Li6 + D was a reaction used in modern-day nuclear weapons.
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