# Where would we put the 51st star? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 27, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229 "2003-01-27T14:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Birefringence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Birefringence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birefringence)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/1 "2003-01-27T14:05:56Z")
Just wondering here, but I was looking at the United States Flag and wondering if we acquired another state, say Puerto Rico, or Guam where would we put put the 51st star? It would look quite awkward if we just threw another one on the flag. Would we completely change the design? ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/2 "2003-01-27T14:11:43Z")
The star field would be re-arranged and would still look ‘even’ and distributed nicely. ‘those in charge’ have plans, just in case, and I know I saw it covered here somewhere. …but can’t find it! Someone will be along to describe the pattern of stars, although it will be re-arranged and still look balanced. Even if more than one were added. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/3 "2003-01-27T14:17:14Z")
[How will stars be arranged on the flag if the U.S. ever has 51 states?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_303.html) (which also discusses 52 and 53 star flags). ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/4 "2003-01-27T15:23:32Z")
There used to be a pic of a 51-star flag at this site, but it appears to be down at the moment: [http://www.puertorico51.org](http://www.puertorico51.org) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/5 "2003-01-27T15:51:29Z")
[This page](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us51star.html) has pictures of the 51-star flag described by Cecil in the link in my first post, as well as a picture of a 51-star flag reportedly favored by the Puerto Rican statehood movement that is, uh, hmmm…yikes. Well, it’s definitely _original_. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/6 "2003-01-27T16:01:36Z")
Though I’d take whatever my buds from the latter site may post with a bit of salt, they’ve been known to exaggerate. So it’s really a simple thing to do, fully addressed by Cecil in the linked column – and the current flag statutes provide for the change to happen so it does not have to be re-legislated every time. BTW, a 54-star flag would have a 9x6 grid, a 55-star flag could use 10 staggered columns of 6 and 5 each (if only because a 5x11 would look too narrow), a 56-star would be 8x7, a 57-star would be 6 rows staggered 10 and 9. Now, the wonder that some people have about how this would be done, and the impression that a change in the Union (starfield) pattern would be something difficult, may result from a historical contingency: The longest periods of “stability” in US Flag design have been 1912-59 (the 6x8 union well-known from WW2 pictures) and 1960-present (the current design)(\*), coinciding with the memory of the overwhelming majority of living Americans. So people reflexively look upon it as somehow “fixed”. Yet from the 1789 to 1912 it was _common_ for people to see the “union” change several times per generation. (\*Technically, for one year the “official” flag was a 49-star one; but hardly any civilians used it or even noticed it – since Hawaii was already admitted flagmakers just went right ahead and ordered the 50-star one.) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/7 "2003-01-27T16:17:21Z")
Oh… yes, did have to say: my compatriots’ “creative” conception of a future US flag (the grain of salt reference was to puertorico51, not FOTW) was a propagandistic design for use in publicity campaigns (probably in violation of Flag Code, ironically enough) , meant to have “our” star in the very center :rolleyes: It is **NOT** , repeat NOT so “commonly used” by the statehooders, I’m one of them and I’ve seen just one in the last 5 years, vs. scores of the conventional-pattern ones. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/8 "2003-01-27T16:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > So people reflexively look upon it as somehow “fixed”. Yet from the 1789 to 1912 it was common for people to see the “union” change several times per generation. If you dig through the articles on that FOTW site, you will also find that the pattern (outside military use) was not legislated until 1912. During that period people were also used to looking at different patterns of stars on flags with the same number, according to manufacturers whims, as well as having the number change every so often. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/9 "2003-01-27T21:12:07Z")
Couldn’t we use this as an excuse to return Texas to the Mexicans? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/10 "2003-01-28T00:10:38Z")
not without another Mexican War! ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/11 "2003-01-28T00:40:46Z")
There was talk about merging the Dakotas. Americans like even numbers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/12 "2003-01-28T01:06:59Z")
I am waiting for a 61 star flag. Fifty states and Twelve provinces. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/13 "2003-01-28T01:08:50Z")
I am not a math wiz. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/14 "2003-01-28T01:13:12Z")
How about a field with 63 stars, (51 states, 12 provinces), a moon, a blue circle and a red circle, all surrounding a hand flipping the bird at anything looking at it. That’s the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@Stan\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/15 "2003-01-28T03:45:57Z")
Three rows of seventeen, forming the arms and central post of a crucifix. The bars would project out of the field of view in Dolby Digital Surround Production by Jerry Bruckheimer Americans only allowed to salute HDTV. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/16 "2003-01-28T04:07:44Z")
At that FotW page that **MEBuckner** gave a link to, there’s this line: > [@](#): > > Also, preliminary designs exist for up to 56 star flags using a similar staggered star arrangement having already been prepared by the **U.S. Govt.'s Institute of Heraldry**. Institute of Heraldry??? Since when does the US Gummit have such a medieval-sounding institution? PS If you’re going to add symbols for provinces, shouldn’t they be little red maple leafs instead of stars? BTW, there’s 10 provinces and 3 territories in the Great White North. So where do you guys get 12 provinces? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-we-put-the-51st-star/151229/17 "2003-01-28T04:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > **Institute of Heraldry??? Since when does the US Gummit have such a medieval-sounding institution?** Since 1960, as it turns out. Go to the [Institute of Heraldry Home Page](https://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/tioh.htm) and click on history. But I’d call it the Army’s Institute of Heraldry, not the Government’s.