# Where'd that straw man come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2001, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142 "2001-08-14T03:27:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/1 "2001-08-14T03:27:36Z")
Those of us who participate in Great Debates regularly know about using “straw men” - caricatures, or outright falsifications, of differing points of view created in order to make the following refutations seem stronger. A neutral observer thinks the person using the straw man argument is talking with himself, though. But I don’t know the origin of the term. How did this practice get such an odd name? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/2 "2001-08-14T03:33:41Z")
We studied this in English this year. WAG…I believe, since a straw man is like a distraction from the true argument, that it’s kind of like a scarecrow. Er…or something. I know that it is also known as a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Skwerl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Skwerl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skwerl)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/3 "2001-08-14T03:38:51Z")
I think that a straw man is really misrepresenting an argument and making it seem weaker and then defeating that argument, and not really the true argument. Ergo, you’re tearing down a weaker “straw man” and not the “real man.” For example, if someone says that hunting deer is good for them, because it keeps population in check, limits resource expenditure, etc., a straw man counter argument would be to say “How could it be good for a deer to shoot him?” This is an easily defended argument, but the opponent is not arguing the hunter’s real point (that hunting is good for the whole, not the individual deer), but a “straw man.” ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/4 "2001-08-14T03:39:18Z")
A Straw Man Argument is a statement you make if you want to more easily attack an opposing position. You intentionally make a silly caricature of that position, one that no one would believe, knock down that silly, unrealistic caricature, and then proclaim that the original version of the argument has been demolished. It happens alot. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/5 "2001-08-14T03:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoggie \* > \*\*I know that it is also known as a red herring. \*\* I think a red herring is a bit different. A red herring is a distraction from the whole of the argument. For example: In discussing Gun control for example, it gets onto the issue of Child saftey. Somebody deliberately trying to steer the conversation away from Gun Control would offer a red herring and go on about…say: Discussing the upbringing of children, and parenting practices. That is what I take it to mean anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/6 "2001-08-14T03:54:53Z")
From [http://www.dissension.com/logic/strawman.html](http://www.dissension.com/logic/strawman.html) > [@](#): > > Word Origin > > A straw man is a scarecrow – and scarecrows don’t fight back, making it an excellent way for an opponent to gain a quick, flamboyant victory. Unfortuately, they don’t give a cite for this origin, but it seems straightforward and logical. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/7 "2001-08-14T18:47:20Z")
I always thought a “red herring” was a misleading clue. For example: “But Holmes!” Watson cried. “All the clues clearly point to a short Indian man!” “Those clues are red herrings, Watson. Clearly this letter was written by a tall eskimo who plays cricket regularly!” Holmes replied. ---
**Author:** ![igloorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@igloorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igloorex)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/8 "2001-08-14T19:15:55Z")
This term is sometimes used in the Navy to indicate a rough draft. In the planning phase of a large exercise, someone will often put out a “strawman schedule” indicating that its it not to be used as a final authority. It is somewhat more rough than a “rough draft.” Of course, based on my experience mixing the Navy and proper English, the term could completely inappropriately applied in this case. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/9 "2001-08-14T19:28:25Z")
Igloorex’s Navy reference is applicable in business as well. Project teams often develop “strawman” (or even “strawperson” if you can believe it) solutions as part of evaluating different alternatives, or checking out the feasibility of a given schedule or approach. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/10 "2001-08-14T19:33:15Z")
Once upon a time, when courts would sentence someone to death who had escaped or never been caught, the convicted person would be hanged or burned “in effigy,” which meant that the authorities made a life-size doll man out of straw, intended to represent the condemned man, and then hanged or burned the “straw man.” Metaphorically, this resembles the act of inventing a false argument that you can refute, claiming that it represents your opponent’s argument, when you cannot refute your opponent’s actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/11 "2001-08-14T19:38:53Z")
Thanks, everyone, especially **Danimal** , whose explanation has the proverbial odor of truth. I just KNEW there’d be a Burning Man connection there somehow, and not just the Wicked Witch of the West threatening the Scarecrow. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/12 "2001-08-15T00:38:10Z")
(Continuing on the red herring hijack) According to my undergrad logic textbook, the origin of “red herring” is in the training of hunting/tracking dogs. You drag a bag of smelly fish (such as red herring) across the real track (of a deer or person or whatever), and see which path the dog follows. The herring serves as a distraction, just like the rhetorical device. ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whered-that-straw-man-come-from/76142/13 "2001-08-15T02:07:17Z")
Random House Dictionary traces the origin of the phrase to the fact that a scarecrow is phony, a counterfeit, like the counterfeit argument one is proposing. > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com?date=19970611)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading.