# Wherein Scylla admonishes the left wing for casting Plame upon Rove **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737 "2006-08-30T01:20:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/181 "2006-09-02T18:05:40Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Bullshit! Fitzgerald has specifically disavowed any such statement, and done so explicitly. [“Let me say two things. Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I’ll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent. We have not charged that. And so I’m not making that assertion.”](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html) It’s not saying she was the day before, either. In fact, no real argument can be made that she was covert since she came back to Langley in 1997 married Wilson and had kids. To be “covert” specifically means that the CIA needs to be active in generating a cover for you and you have to serve abroad in the last five years since the CIA is specifically precluded from operating within the US in this manner. Neither occured. Her cover was blown first by Ames, than by marrying Wilson, then by Wilson’s editorial. [/quote] Like \*\*Hamlet \*\* shows, even moderates see that and conclude the left is still more closer to the truth, your feeble mind telling you this proves your point is the amusing thing. That is indeed what an artful dodger does, stick in a definition and claim a clear Pyhrric victory. And you think moving from saying “covert” to “classified” makes it better? What I do remember is that her classified status involved Iran, but the funny thing here is that you have to use the word cover any how to describe what was blown. > [@](#): > > Armitage’s claim that he did it accidently and without malice contradicts the clame that Rove, Cheney et al did it for retribution. It only happened once. There is now no positive evidence that retribution occured. It’s a fabrication. Always has been. That is your bullshit, Armitage telling abut the classified/covert Plame might have been the origin of all this, but then ignoring the “pure” coincidence that other administration members contacted the press to confirm (the now painfully doubtful)) evidence of Iraq seeking to get Uranium from Nigeria shows idiocy. What Wilson was reporting was the whole truth that the current information was unreliable for use in a case for war, and at that time the administration was talking about mushroom clouds, even talk of Iraq seeking (not getting) nuclear material was critical to continue fooling the American people into war. Wilson was telling the administration it was foolish to be certain, what I do think it happened was that blowing the classified status of Valerie was not the main focus, the focus was (and still is) the control of the media, the blitz the administration did and the level of control they have was exemplified by the sorry spectacle of finding members of the mainstream media in bed with the administration when they were supposed to investigate it. Such media then posted as news what in reality was speculation from the administration and then people like Cheney jumped to say rags like the New York times printed news supportive of the cause of war independently from the administration, ergo the administration was correct, and so the rest of the mainstream media followed. The outing of Valerie Plame was a price the administration was willing to pay for continuing the control of the media. Deluded sea monster fool, the mendacity I talk about is related to the maneuvers made to make a slam dunk of the war, Valeria Plame is collateral damage that has come to bite the administration in the ass. > [@](#): > > These are you people. Mean, stupid, ignorant, lying. Gee you find a bit of Fitzgerald differentiating between covert and classified, and still Fitzgerald (a republican) decided to prosecute, it is a bit of correction that does not help you with the fact that your Wilson quote was said with the intension to lie. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/182 "2006-09-02T18:22:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Even taking your best case scenario, the identity of a CIA agent was leaked, then confirmed, by members of the Bush administration. [QUOTE=Scylla] Yes. I blame Joe Wilson for this. [/quote] “There is a lack of people pointing out the lies and fabrications of the left”. So based on that clearly controversial statement you go ahead and make your own. Joe Wilson did not leak any information regarding the classified status of Valerie Plame. All your “evidence” regarding this bit is a lie. And you being caught before in the lies of the right shows that you get lessons that bite you in the butt, but you are proud to show to everybody those lessons were never learned. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/183 "2006-09-02T19:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Armitage’s claim that he did it accidently and without malice contradicts the clame that Rove, Cheney et al did it for retribution. Yeah, and the fact that I just ate a peach means I therefore part my hair in the middle. Makes about as much sense. > [@](#): > > It only happened once. Scylla: Assertion. RTF: Rebuttal. Scylla: Repetition of assertion. > [@](#): > > There is now no positive evidence that retribution occured. Define ‘positive.’ Because it’s the sort of sequence of events where, if this happened to a bunch of people you knew and had nothing to do with politics, everyone would agree that it seems unlikely that Plame’s name was brought into it for any other reason. > [@](#): > > It’s a fabrication. Always has been. You keep on saying that, but saying it doesn’t make it true. > [@](#): > > He’s a 24 year veteran and was Plame’s boss for a while which certainly puts him in a reasonable position. He wasn’t Plame’s boss during the period in question - and was apparently not even CIA then. Unless the CIA is a hell of a lot more chatty with former agents than it should be, he shouldn’t have known anything. Most central: what reason would he have had to know what the neighbors knew about Plame’s career? He would have had no _professional_ reason. If he lived in the same neighborhood and overheard gossip, then he’s better informed than I only due to living in the same neighborhood. If that’s the case, let him produce one neighbor who knew, prior to Novak’s piece, that Plame was CIA. > [@](#): > > Certainly, it’s a better position of knowledge than you chuckleheads who continue to assert that she **was** covert or that there was deliberate mendacity in outing her. You are in no position to know this, and you have no fucking cites of anybody providing evidence of mendacity. Just Rove going to a lot of trouble to drop her name into conversations he initiated with various reporters. You think he was doing this out of _good will_ for the Wilsons? Hahahaahaha. > [@](#): > > To this day, neither Wilson nor Plame is claiming she had covert status, not even in her lawsuit against the administration. Yeah, I said that. They’re not supposed to talk about whether they were once covert, even after their cover has been blown. > [@](#): > > She is merely claiming that she lost the ability to be covert in the future (which is pretty fucking ridiculous, but hey). Only to you. > [@](#): > > You are claiming a status for them that they are not stupid enough to attempt to claim. You’re right - they’re not stupid enough to violate their oaths. That doesn’t support anything you’re saying. Other than reinforcing the fact that you twisted that Wilson quote earlier. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/184 "2006-09-02T19:50:46Z")
I stand in defense of the douchebag! In no wise did he distort the Wilson quote, he merely excised those portions that might prove inconvenient. Like the difference between “classified” and “covert”, the subtlety of this distinction may evade you. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/185 "2006-09-03T04:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **Scylla** : …and her classified status was leaked as a direct consequence of her husband’s cries for attention in an attempt to smear the Bush campaign in an election year… President Bush’s claim about yellowcake came in a State of the Union Address in January of 2003. Joe Wilson’s editorial response about what he didn’t find in Africa was written the first week of July in 2003 and Valerie Plame was outed by mid-July. The election was in **2004.** ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/186 "2006-09-03T07:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Even taking your best case scenario, the identity of a CIA agent was leaked, then confirmed, by members of the Bush administration. > [@](#): > > Yes. I blame Joe Wilson for this. I’m sure you do, Scylla. I wouldn’t be surprised if you also blame Bill Clinton, Michael Moore, and the ghost of Eleanor Roosevelt. But most of us are going to continue blaming the people who are actually guilty; Armitage, Libby, and Rove. > [@](#): > > And once again: if no crime were committed because Ms. Plame was not a covert agent, then why did the CIA refer the case to Justice? An inter-agency practical joke. > [@](#): > > I can’t read their minds so I can’t tell you for sure. I would guess because not being prosecutors they didn’t know if there was a case and wanted Justice to investigate, and because Plame’s status was classified. > [@](#): > > Oh, I see. “Classified” as distinct from “covert”. Semantic bitchiness, indeed. Scylla is apparently going to pass on this question, so we can only guess at his thoughts on this issue. But I think he’s trying to imply that the CIA might have classified the fact that Plame wasn’t a covert agent. This argument has two flaws; it’s not true and it makes no sense. But you can’t blame Scylla for the difficulty he’s facing. You have to really stretch the boundaries of truth and reason to make a case it’s all the liberals’ fault when apparently every single person involved in this mess is a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/187 "2006-09-03T13:46:13Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But you can’t blame Scylla for the difficulty he’s facing. [/QUOTE] Actually, I would argue that you can, since it was fairly obvious from the beginning that **Scylla** was throwing out a poorly developed and illogical argument that was intended only to generate conflict and garner attention for himself. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/188 "2006-09-03T13:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You have to really stretch the boundaries of truth and reason to make a case it’s all the liberals’ fault when apparently every single person involved in this mess is a Republican. [/QUOTE] Hey, waitaminnit! Isn’t Joe Wilson a Democrat? Or at least a lickspittle enabler of the Liberal Agenda[sup]TM[/sup]? So **Scylla** is correct after all: it’s all Joe Wilson’s fault. Why, hell, if he hadn’t married the woman – worse yet, sired _kids_ on her – none of this would ever have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/189 "2006-09-03T14:58:38Z")
**Scylla:** > [@](#): > > There is now no positive evidence that retribution occured. **RTF:** > [@](#): > > Define ‘positive.’ Because it’s the sort of sequence of events where, if this happened to a bunch of people you knew and had nothing to do with politics, everyone would agree that it seems unlikely that Plame’s name was brought into it for any other reason. And, once again, I remind **Scylla** of Cheney’s handwritten comments on Joe Wilson’s editorial. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/190 "2006-09-03T15:08:25Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] And, once again, I remind **Scylla** of Cheney’s handwritten comments on Joe Wilson’s editorial. [/QUOTE] but did his hand written comments include a statement like “I am going to out his wife to discredit Wilson and all for nefarious political motives”??? and were said comments written in his blood, proven by DNA match? if not, I submit to you the claim would still be non proven in his eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/191 "2006-09-03T16:07:27Z")
Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/192 "2006-09-03T16:21:33Z")
Planted by George Tenet, on instructions from the Hillary-Moore-Soros Directorate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/193 "2006-09-03T16:37:43Z")
Folks, you can do one of 2 things in the future when you see another \*\*Scylla \*\* selfpityfest here, ISTM: Either DNFTT, or let him continue to make the case for the guys he appears on the surface to be _attacking_. Really, he does a mighty fine job of that. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/194 "2006-09-03T16:42:49Z")
Ok, let’s see. **Hentor** says something stupid. Surprise, surprise. **Hamlet** let says something stupid about talking points. As if somebody else saying it makes it wrong. More shit about my personality, his personality. Yawn. **Gigobuster** Nothing there. **RTF** Repeats his not the boss comment about the 24 year veteran. > [@](#): > > They’re not supposed to talk about whether they were once covert, even after their cover has been blown. Really? Where’d you hear that? Kind of makes her book deal moot. Gotta cite for that rule? **Zoe** > [@](#): > > President Bush’s claim about yellowcake came in a State of the Union Address in January of 2003. Joe Wilson’s editorial response about what he didn’t find in Africa was written the first week of July in 2003 and Valerie Plame was outed by mid-July. The election was in 2004 Yes. Thank you, and the scandal grew through that period. **Little Nemor** Some stupid stuff, confused about “covert” verus “classified” and why I don’t want to explain. He wonders at ulterior motives. No. It’s just a stupid ass question not worth my time since it’s already been explained and cited, and participants in this discussion oughtta know, and Lucy’s a pain in the ass. **Gadarene** The handwritten comments. He wrote “Wilson,” right? And, one other word, right? And from this you construe…? * * * Okeydoke. You guys got two things to prove. Prove the administration deliberately leaked Plame’s name for retribution and show how Plame was covert up to the time the article was published. If someone wants to make a solid run at proving either of those things with, you know… actual arguments, backed by things like logic and cites, than we have a debate. (complete arguments) Otherwise you guys lose. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/195 "2006-09-03T16:53:01Z")
If only there was some way to harness this sort of partisan flailing… I’m sure we could power a large town or a small city. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/196 "2006-09-03T17:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] … **Little Nemor** Some stupid stuff, confused about “covert” verus “classified” and why I don’t want to explain. He wonders at ulterior motives. No. It’s just a stupid ass question not worth my time since it’s already been explained and cited, and participants in this discussion oughtta know,… [/QUOTE] Thundering piffle. You cannot answer the question “If Ms. Plame were not covert, why then did the CIA refer the matter for criminal investigation. Since, being the CIA, they were in an excellent position to know whether or not she were covert.” Being unable to do so, you fall back on not being a mind-reader and some drivel about some alleged distinction between “classified” and “covert” that you are unwilling to clarify. Since, of course, you can’t. So you claim, for the 10,000 time, that you have absolutely demolished that issue and can’t be bothered. Standard **Scylla** playbook. In the midst of your victory lap, you look up to see that the stands are empty and the other guys have taken the trophy, gone home, and are printing up the T-shirts! Jubilation T. Cornpone. Cornpone’s Defeat, Cornpone’s Rout, and Cornpone’s Utter Humiliation. > [@](#): > > …and Lucy’s a pain in the ass… Mom says that’s because I’m special. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/197 "2006-09-03T17:21:36Z")
Really, **Scylla** , that was pathetic even by your standards. Stick with groundhogs and blimps and leave actual debating to the grownups. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/198 "2006-09-03T17:25:58Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] If only there was some way to harness this sort of partisan flailing… I’m sure we could power a large town or a small city. [/QUOTE] Harness your brain power and we could make… toast. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/199 "2006-09-03T17:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Thundering piffle. You cannot answer the question “If Ms. Plame were not covert, why then did the CIA refer the matter for criminal investigation. Since, being the CIA, they were in an excellent position to know whether or not she were covert.” [/quote] Sure I can, it’s just one of those stupid questions that shouldn’t be asked. The answer is because her status was classified. > [@](#): > > Being unable to do so, you fall back on not being a mind-reader and some drivel about some alleged distinction between “classified” and “covert” that you are unwilling to clarify. I can’t cure what’s wrong with you. Pay me and I’ll explain the difference for you. > [@](#): > > Since, of course, you can’t. So you claim, for the 10,000 time, that you have absolutely demolished that issue and can’t be bothered. Standard **Scylla** playbook. Being really stupid. Standard Elucination. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/200 "2006-09-03T17:34:37Z")
Paraphrasing **Scylla** : _Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’ You gotta have somethin’ If you wanna be with me_ Pathetic non-reply from a non-character, it is to be expected. However I’m content with the fact that everybody can see here how you do not want to deal with the clear lie you wanted to pass in the Wilson quote. It is evidence enough of your “powers” of deduction, and the quality of your character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737.md?page=11)