# Wherein Scylla admonishes the left wing for casting Plame upon Rove **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737 "2006-08-30T01:20:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/321 "2006-09-06T17:58:39Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Indeed. Lighten up. 😛 [/QUOTE] Oh, you were joking? After my camping accident, I sometimes have a hard time detecting subtle humor. This stick that got lodged in my ass can be quite distracting. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/322 "2006-09-06T23:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=waterj2] Yes, but I really don’t know if that’s the sort of thing that would enable the US to tell Iran that we’d like our diplomat back and require them to give her back, or if wives of ambassadors are at the mercy of the laws that the rest of us are bound to when they wander around the world on their own business. As I said, I don’t really care so much, as it’s irrelevant to the legal case, but you do seem to be making the claim that it ought to be apparent, when I don’t think it is. [/quote] NOC stands for nonofficial cover, and, according to Wikipedia (my source for the latest spy info) refers to people who are spies who do not have official status such as being an embassy employee or an ambassador’s wife. Being a NOC means you will be disavowed if caught. Whereas, the official status means you are generally known to the intelligence service of the country you are in. The ambassador’s wife has official status no matter where she goes. She will be known as such. I don’t see how she can possibly be a NOC with official status. Inherently contradictory. But you’re right, it doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > We’ll continue to disagree, of course. But I think I’ll mostly leave this to the others. I mean, I’m not sure how far out on a limb I want to go basing my arguments around the credibility of a [guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_C._Johnson#2006) that said: “Karl is a shameless bastard. This could explain why his mother killed herself. Once she discovered what a despicable soul she had spawned she apparently saw no other way out.” Sure, I still think he’s right, but sheesh. Yeah, I know what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/323 "2006-09-06T23:40:15Z")
**Kaylasdad** I don’t think they’ve been trying to discredit the information Wilson shared, but rather his motives in sharing it. You’ll recall the adminstration backed off it’s stance on the yellowcake and admitted they shouldn’t have said it in pretty short order. I think Wilson’s motives are fair game, though. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/324 "2006-09-06T23:54:28Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] **Kaylasdad** I don’t think they’ve been trying to discredit the information Wilson shared, but rather his motives in sharing it. You’ll recall the adminstration backed off it’s stance on the yellowcake and admitted they shouldn’t have said it in pretty short order. I think Wilson’s motives are fair game, though. [/QUOTE] Thank you for clarifying that. It was my impression that they _were_ trying to discredit the information by virtue of its association with Joe Wilson. I don’t recall the timelines of yellowcake assertion -\> Wilson piece -\> withdrawal of assertion, myself, but I’ll see what I can learn through further research. Regards, LEFTWINGCUTESEYSEMANTICBITCH 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/325 "2006-09-06T23:59:22Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [At least get the basic timeline right.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060918/corn) [/QUOTE] I have my timeline straight, doofus. She attended the LSE and the college of Europe and graduated the last in 1995, as I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/326 "2006-09-07T00:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] **Kaylasdad** I don’t think they’ve been trying to discredit the information Wilson shared, but rather his motives in sharing it. You’ll recall the adminstration backed off it’s stance on the yellowcake and admitted they shouldn’t have said it in pretty short order… [/quote] Well, yes, they did, didn’t they? Seeing as how they were flat busted and the documents they based this fantasy on turned out to be blatant and amateurish forgeries…yeah, that’s very forthright of them. You are welcome to believe that they would have acted the same way if they might have had a chance to get away with it. Their record for open candor being what it isn’t. > [@](#): > > …I think Wilson’s motives are fair game, though. So that’s it? Thats all you got left? Is it time for your victory limp? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/327 "2006-09-07T00:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] I have my timeline straight, doofus. She attended the LSE and the college of Europe and graduated the last in 1995, as I wrote. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Scylla] While she was at Penn State majoring in advertising? :rolleyes: She didn’t finish schooling till 1995. [/QUOTE] So what do the roll eyes mean? You agree with **RTFirefly**? Or were they just a typo? Bravo, **elucidator** , you are a freaking psychic, predicting this almost a full day before Scylla fulfilled it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/328 "2006-09-07T00:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] And shorter **Scylla** on another issue: ‘Rustman is authoritative, because I agree with him.’ [/quote] Did you get your false quotations from the elucidator school of deliberate prevarications and strawmen? I like Rustman because he actually worked with Plame, and he’s not an obvious total lunatic like Johnson. But I can see why you think Johnson’s swell :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Seems that in **Scylla** ’s mind, any evidence, any source, that contradicts Rustman, is automatically wrong, because Rustman worked for the CIA and was briefly Plame’s boss in the very early stages of her career. Versus Johnson who Hentor look balanced and moderate, and lays claim to no association with Plame, yet magically has information that nobody else will confirm, and which oops which would have been dangerously specific, inherently damaging, and directly compromising to agents in specific locations had it been true. It’s self-refuting, the guy’s a wingnut. > [@](#): > > This despite the obvious weakness of Rustman’s assertions that Plame’s friends and neighbors all knew she was CIA: the friends and neighbors we know of who’ve been interviewed didn’t know, and AFAWK no neighbors who claim they _did_ know have ever been produced. Her parents claim to have known, and while some articles interview some specific neighbors like the Tillotsons this is hardly a comprehensive sample. There is some serious dispute on this and even Fitzgerald/Fitzpatrick simply states that it was not “widely” known, which seems to indicate that there was some knowledge. Since it’s in dispute this is hardly a refutation. > [@](#): > > Even former CIA agents are human, and can say things that reflect their personal animus rather than their professional expertise. Or they can be totally off the wall wingnuts like Johnson. > [@](#): > > What we know is that Rustman has made an allegation about Plame that is at odds with the other facts we have. Those “facts” are heavily disputed. > [@](#): > > We don’t have any evidence of Rustman’s track record as an honest and reliable witness other than this. Accordingly, Rustman must be considered a questionable source. Not quite. Just because the facts are in dispute doesn’t mean that Rustman is incorrect. Do you have evidence to suggest that Rustman has an axe to grind that you care to share? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/329 "2006-09-07T00:39:21Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] I have my timeline straight, doofus. She attended the bLSE and the college of Europe and graduated the last in 1995, as I wrote. [/QUOTE] I get **so freakin’ tired** of idiots who never get it through their head that others can scroll up and _see_ what they wrote. > [@Scylla](#): > > > [@RTFirefly](#): > > > > “Rustman, whose formal association with Plame consisted of when he’d been her boss for a year or so back in the 1980s…” > > While she was at Penn State majoring in advertising? Like I said, she graduated from Penn State in 1985. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up? Yes, she took classes at other institutions later on. But she was recruited into the CIA in 1985, straight out of Penn State. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up? It is far from unknown for persons to pursue graduate degrees without taking time off from their careers. I know several people who’ve done exactly that. Do you have a cite that Plame wasn’t working for the CIA while she was taking graduate classes? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/330 "2006-09-07T00:50:39Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Did you get your false quotations from the elucidator school of deliberate prevarications and strawmen? [/quote] Nah, if I wanted to learn about prevarications and strawmen, I’m addressing the expert, and I’d go straight to him. Why do you ask? > [@](#): > > I like Rustman because he actually worked with Plame, and he’s not an obvious total lunatic like Johnson. > > But I can see why you think Johnson’s swell :rolleyes: Who the fuck is Johnson?? Versus Johnson who Hentor look balanced and moderate, and lays claim to no association with Plame, yet magically has information that nobody else will confirm, and which oops which would have been dangerously specific, inherently damaging, and directly compromising to agents in specific locations had it been true. It’s self-refuting, the guy’s a wingnut. Or they can be totally off the wall wingnuts like Johnson. [/quote] I don’t care how big a wingnut your Johnson is. Just quit whipping it out in our discussion, OK? You only need to convince your wife that you’re a man; I don’t really care. > [@](#): > > Her parents claim to have known, Wow, she told her _parents_. Well then, her cover was definitely blown. Just like when she told her husband. > [@](#): > > and while some articles interview some specific neighbors like the Tillotsons this is hardly a comprehensive sample. There is some serious dispute on this and even Fitzgerald/Fitzpatrick simply states that it was not “widely” known, which seems to indicate that there was some knowledge. Since it’s in dispute this is hardly a refutation. It ought to be easy enough to find one neighbor who will admit to knowing, if as Rustman says, lots of her neighbors knew. > [@](#): > > Those “facts” are heavily disputed. Just one, and you’re golden. > [@](#): > > Not quite. Just because the facts are in dispute doesn’t mean that Rustman is incorrect. Do you have evidence to suggest that Rustman has an axe to grind that you care to share? What I have is exactly what I’ve stated: if her CIA employment was so widely known as he suggests, it should be easy to find **one** friend or neighbor who could back that up. So far, Rustman seems to have **no** supporting evidence of a claim that should be a cinch to support. Until he can do that, one must assume that there’s a good chance he’s BSing. Because we have no way of verifying his other claims, but this one’s easily verifiable if true, so the failure of anyone (including the scads of people who’d like to discredit Plame and Wilson) to do so comes as close to proving a negative as one is likely to get. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/331 "2006-09-07T01:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] I was being kind. Calling it ambiguous seemed more polite than saying, “you are deliberately taking liberties with the definition.” [/quote] No. I cited my definition and sourced it. > [@](#): > > Didn’t we go over this? Yes. Apparently you weren’t paying attention. > [@](#): > > The first condition that must be met is that her status must be classified, which Fitzpatrick establishes. No. That’s not true. If you think it is please cite that as a condition of covert under Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act] > [@](#): > > The 2nd condition is that she must have served overseas within the past 5 years. This is true. > [@](#): > > You are going to doubt sources that state that condition #2 has been met… Yes. Other sources say she did not serve abroad after she was called home to Langley after the Aldritch Ames outing, married Wilson, had twins, suffered sever post-partum depression etc. etc. > [@](#): > > but why the fuck are you adding in this “providing active cover” non-sequitur? You sense that Plame might well meet the definition of covert, perhaps even NOC, so you throw in your own qualifiers like a petulant child. Grow up and stick with the facts, or come right out and admit that you intend to waste my time. I don’t mind people making mistakes but I hate when they are a prick about it. The two conditions of covert are: 1. Serving abroad in the last five years and 2. The making specific efforts to conceal her identity. I didn’t make it up. That’s what it says in Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act]. I cited Fitzgerald quoting it. “If Libby knowingly disclosed information about Plame’s status with the CIA, Libby would appear to have violated Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act] if the information is considered “information respecting the national defense.” In order to establish a violation of Title 50, United States Code, Section 421 ], it would be necessary to establish that Libby knew or believed that Plame was a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years.” Now, you may wish to argue that simply having her status as “classified” is a specific effort to conceal, but the act itself makes it clear that more specific efforts are required than simply calling it classified as it makes these efforts in addition to the classified status. [http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html](http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html) I have taken these specific efforts to mean providing an active cover and I think that’s a fair interpretation. > [@](#): > > Yes, condition #2 depends upon Johnson’s claims being substantiated. The claim itself is plausible, but I’d like to see a second source, and presumably time will tell. Johnson is eminently dismissable. > [@](#): > > I certainly think this is a more reasonable approach than holding up Rustman as inherently more credible because, well, because he says things you like to believe are true. Rustman was a genuine NOC, and Plame’s boss for a time. He had much higher ranking than Johnson, served over 20 years as a spymaster compared to Johnson’s 4-5 (in an unknown capacity) and shows no appearance of being a wingnut running around opining that Rove is to blame for his mother’s suicide. He is not measured or careful at all in his statements. Do you really want to hang your hat on this Johnson guy? You better take a good look at the shit he says first. He makes Coulter look like a sweetie. > [@](#): > > Rustman was fairly far removed from her during the period of time in question. This is true, but he was **much** closer than Johnson, had much more experience and seniority, and has the added benefit of not being an obvious rabid lunatic. > [@](#): > > Any idea why her current boss isn’t speaking? Maybe he believes that ‘classified’ means classified. Think about it… what does silence from the CIA, other than their request to have the matter investigated, seem to indicate? If they had some wannabe poseur on their hands, they’d have debunked the notion themselves early on. I don’t see these questions as answerable beyond speculation. > [@](#): > > As for the rest of this non-sense… what do you think an operative is? Maxwell smart with a shoe-phone? Getting married and having children does not prevent Plame from posing as an energy analyst when her real purpose was quite different. You don’t need to skulk around in disguise with a number rather than a name to act as a spy. I would imagine that marrying a diplomat makes the undercover part kind of hard. Having twins and suffering severe postpartum depression would also make it hard, and not serving abroad would also make it hard. As an interesting note, there is a USA today article. Let’s pretend that Johnson is correct and that Plame took trips abroad in 2000, 2002, and 2003 (IIRC.) This would be in contradiction to Wilson’s own statements. “In The Politics of Truth, former ambassador Joseph Wilson writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse, a reading of the book indicates, was again stationed overseas. They appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.” (note also that Plame had the aforementioned severe postpartum depression going on here, so her capacity to act covertly may not have been at an optimum) Anyway: "the law against unmasking the identities of U.S. spies says a “covert agent” must have been on an overseas assignment “within the last five years.” The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say. " “Unless she was really stationed abroad sometime after their marriage,” she wasn’t a covert agent protected by the law, says Bruce Sanford, an attorney who helped write the 1982 act that protects covert agents’ identities." Since Sanford helped write the law, we can take his opinion seriously. So, for the sake of argument, pretending that Johnson’s claims of Plame’s trips are confirmed (which I think is highly doubtful,) it still means nothing in terms of covert status under the identities protection act. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/332 "2006-09-07T01:09:21Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Thank you for clarifying that. It was my impression that they _were_ trying to discredit the information by virtue of its association with Joe Wilson. I don’t recall the timelines of yellowcake assertion -\> Wilson piece -\> withdrawal of assertion, myself, but I’ll see what I can learn through further research. Regards, LEFTWINGCUTESEYSEMANTICBITCH 😃 [/QUOTE] My pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/333 "2006-09-07T01:21:38Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I get **so freakin’ tired** of idiots who never get it through their head that others can scroll up and _see_ what they wrote. [/quote] Not as much as I do with morons who can’t actually read. > [@](#): > > Like I said, she graduated from Penn State in 1985. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up? No. I agree. In fact, she majored in advertising. > [@](#): > > Yes, she took classes at other institutions later on. But she was recruited into the CIA in 1985, straight out of Penn State. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up? I really don’t know about that. The CIA doesn’t list its training class alumni that I’m aware of. I do know that saying that “she took classes at other institutions later on” is not really putting the proper face on it, since she earned Masters from each institution. That’s a little bit more than “taking classes.” Her schooling ended in 1995. Between graduating Penn State and then she earned two additional Masters degrees. Between these she served in the US Embassy in Athens. Two years after she graduated this last she came back to Langley and married Wilson. I’m not really seeing a lot of room here for a major undercover spying career. Are you? When she was recruited, I don’t know. DO you have the class list? > [@](#): > > It is far from unknown for persons to pursue graduate degrees without taking time off from their careers. I know several people who’ve done exactly that. Do you have a cite that Plame wasn’t working for the CIA while she was taking graduate classes? You mean like in a continuing ed sort of capacity? Working her way through Grad school shooting bad guys? “I’m sorry. I can’t meet with my spy ring right now. I’m in class.” I suppose anything is possible. I’m having a tough time envisioning her travelling the world, recruiting spies, wielding ak-47s while handling the rigors of graduate school. I guess I imagine spying as a little more involved career choice than working at the Circle K. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/334 "2006-09-07T01:30:46Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] It ought to be easy enough to find one neighbor who will admit to knowing, if as Rustman says, lots of her neighbors knew. Just one, and you’re golden. What I have is exactly what I’ve stated: if her CIA employment was so widely known as he suggests, it should be easy to find **one** friend or neighbor who could back that up. So far, Rustman seems to have **no** supporting evidence of a claim that should be a cinch to support. Until he can do that, one must assume that there’s a good chance he’s BSing. Because we have no way of verifying his other claims, but this one’s easily verifiable if true, so the failure of anyone (including the scads of people who’d like to discredit Plame and Wilson) to do so comes as close to proving a negative as one is likely to get. [/QUOTE] Like I noticed hundreds of times before: Time lines are a huge blind spot for extreme conservatives. On top of finding that the quote on Wilson was used out of context in an effort to mislead, no matter how much our “superscyllious” member insists to the contrary, the allegations that neighbors knew her secret status remain BS. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html) > [@](#): > > Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community. > > Valerie Wilson’s friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life. > > FITZGERALD: The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It’s important that a CIA officer’s identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation’s security. > > Valerie Wilson’s cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/335 "2006-09-07T01:34:02Z")
Is there something about Ms Plame’s post-partum depression you find compellingly relevent? You’ve brought it up several times now. I am entirely willing to stipulate that Ms Plame is human, female, and has given birth. Pending evidence to the contrary, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/336 "2006-09-07T01:38:23Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Who the fuck is Johnson?? [/quote] A total fucking nutjob. > [@](#): > > Wow, she told her _parents_. Well then, her cover was definitely blown. Just like when she told her husband. You’re not supposed to tell anybody. Are you? Or, is it ok to just tell a couple of people? > [@](#): > > It ought to be easy enough to find one neighbor who will admit to knowing, if as Rustman says, lots of her neighbors knew. > > Just one, and you’re golden. How’s [Cliff May?](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/26/112629.shtml) > [@](#): > > What I have is exactly what I’ve stated: if her CIA employment was so widely known as he suggests, it should be easy to find **one** friend or neighbor who could back that up. So far, Rustman seems to have **no** supporting evidence of a claim that should be a cinch to support. Until he can do that, one must assume that there’s a good chance he’s BSing. > > Because we have no way of verifying his other claims, but this one’s easily verifiable if true, so the failure of anyone (including the scads of people who’d like to discredit Plame and Wilson) to do so comes as close to proving a negative as one is likely to get. Cliff May. He also writes this rather thoughtful article. Novak only wrote that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA. She wasn’t “outed” as being “Covert” until Corn wrote a piece about it a few days later and May makes the strong logical case that Wilson himself outed his wife!!! [http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp) Ha! It’s kind of a gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/337 "2006-09-07T01:43:43Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Is there something about Ms Plame’s post-partum depression you find compellingly relevent? You’ve brought it up several times now. I am entirely willing to stipulate that Ms Plame is human, female, and has given birth. Pending evidence to the contrary, of course. [/QUOTE] Sure. It’s evidence that she was at home, being domestic, and not going abroad on secret missions like Corn and Johnson allege. It was apparently serious enough that she required help, and it backs up the suggestion that she did not work undercover since 1997 when she got called back, married Wilson, got pregnant, had kids, suffered postpartum depression et al. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/338 "2006-09-07T01:47:04Z")
You have a source who writes for NewsMax? Heavens, why didn’t you say so! Certainly more reliable a source than that scoundrel Corn, who writes for the rabidly left moonbat scandal sheet _The Nation_. And since you’ve already referenced the _Washington Times_, you’ve covered two of the central pillars of non-biased reportage. And he thinks he remembers hearing some stuff. Incontrovertible. We reel in disarray. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/339 "2006-09-07T01:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] How’s [Cliff May?](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/26/112629.shtml) Cliff May. He also writes this rather thoughtful article. [/QUOTE] [Resisting laughter] Where does it say that Cliff May is the Neighbor? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737/340 "2006-09-07T01:54:49Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] … and not going abroad on secret missions like Corn and Johnson allege… [/QUOTE] I don’t see that as being an allegation of Corn, and the connection to Johnson is of your own devising. Allow me to refresh your flagging memory: > [@](#): > > …At the time of her outing, Valerie Wilson was an undercover officer in the CIA whose mission had been to gather intelligence about WMDs in Iraq. She was the operations manager of the Joint Task Force on Iraq, a unit in the clandestine service of the CIA. This unit desperately tried to obtain evidence to back up the Bush administration’s assertions about Saddam’s WMDs, yet it found no such evidence… I’m not sure what a tortured parsing of the word “undercover” might reveal. It does not, however, necessarily imply an overseas posting, true enough. Indeed, Mr Corn’s suggestion would lead me to the impression that she was too important and knowledgeable to _risk_ on such an assignment. You are welcome to whatever comfort you can find in that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wherein-scylla-admonishes-the-left-wing-for-casting-plame-upon-rove/370737.md?page=18)