# Where's my fucking affordable health care, you fucking fuck? \[lame\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896 "2005-04-18T14:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/181 "2005-04-25T00:37:48Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > I think it’s only fair now that someone pass the same on to me, or others like me. The insurance my parents (saints that they are) will lapse soon, and I don’t know that my round of surgeries will be over before that happens. What’s wrong with me actually getting some fucking healthcare for my labor? So your whole argument boils down to “it’s not fair”? Waaa! And there’s nothing wrong with getting some healthcare for your labor. You are perfectly free to negotiate better benefits from your current employer, or to find a different job. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/182 "2005-04-25T01:07:44Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So your whole argument boils down to “it’s not fair”? Waaa! > > And there’s nothing wrong with getting some healthcare for your labor. You are perfectly free to negotiate better benefits from your current employer, or to find a different job. She’s not saying it’s “not fair.” She’s saying it’s not RIGHT. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/183 "2005-04-25T01:24:30Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So your whole argument boils down to “it’s not fair”? Waaa! And your opposition to UHC boils down to “My money! Mine! Mine! MINEMINEMINEMINEMINE!” Throw in some stomping feet and perhaps flinging yourself to the ground and kicking and we have ourselves a fine argument. For a two year old. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/184 "2005-04-25T01:24:50Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > So your whole argument boils down to “it’s not fair”? Waaa! > > And there’s nothing wrong with getting some healthcare for your labor. You are perfectly free to negotiate better benefits from your current employer, or to find a different job. Or, best of all, to make the system fair and right. (Why is the conservative response always ‘love it or leave it!’? Bunch of fuckin’ idiots) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/185 "2005-04-25T01:43:39Z")
> [@galen ubal](#): > > Or, best of all, to make the system fair and right. And who decides what’s “fair and right”? You and **Guin**? No, thanks, I’ll pass. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/186 "2005-04-25T01:47:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And your opposition to UHC boils down to “My money! Mine! Mine! MINEMINEMINEMINEMINE!” I already pay ~$10K a year in health insurance. Seems to me, if you think I should pay even more, you might want to advance some compelling _reason_ why I ought to do so, rather than name-calling. Shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/187 "2005-04-25T01:50:13Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I already pay ~$10K a year in health insurance. Seems to me, if you think I should pay even more, you might want to advance some compelling _reason_ why I ought to do so, rather than name-calling. Shrug. I think, if it were UHC, you wouldn’t have to be paying that 10K-you might then pay say, oh, 5k extra in taxes, for the same damned thing, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/188 "2005-04-25T01:52:15Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I already pay ~$10K a year in health insurance. Seems to me, if you think I should pay even more, you might want to advance some compelling _reason_ why I ought to do so, rather than name-calling. Shrug. The whole point, you empty-headed tool, is that you’d be paying _less_ under UHC. If the revolution ever comes, and by some miracle you’re not shipped off to the Gulag immediately, feel free to continue paying your 10 grand to make a point (other than the one on the top of your head.) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/189 "2005-04-25T02:01:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think, if it were UHC, you wouldn’t have to be paying that 10K-you might then pay say, oh, 5k extra in taxes, for the same damned thing, dumbass. And what miracle of leftist economics is going to achieve this? Paying 1/2 of what I am paying now, for the same benefits? Really, how is that going to work? ---
**Author:** ![steveh46](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@steveh46](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steveh46)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/190 "2005-04-25T02:14:48Z")
> [@Long Time First Time](#): > > Does anyone have a good explanation for this disconnect? Why it the best care in the U.S. perceived as the worst? Is it only insurance co. propaganda? Because if everyone was clamoring for VA style health care, it would go a long way towards pushing the U.S. towards UHC. But nobody seems to want this, despite the proof published in peer-reviewed medical journals that it provides superior outcomes. I actually have a good idea why this is: Things that are easy to count, to quantify, are not the things that make people happy with the health care system. While the VA does all the right things on treating say, diabetics, the VA hospitals are old and maybe the staff isn’t all that personable. The diabetic doesn’t actually know they’re getting state of the art care, it doesn’t look high-tech, etc. If only they were getting care at one of those wonderful, high-tech hospitals with a brand new MRI machine ready to go! Of course, some things that are hard to quantify, eg. having a doctor that actually takes the time to listen to you, are hard to quantify and/or are actively discouraged by insurers payment policies. Neither are rankings based on some criteria fool-proof indicators of quality, but when you see how many ERs can’t even remember to give a patient an aspirin when they’re having an AMI, youshouldn’t totally discount them either. ---
**Author:** ![steveh46](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@steveh46](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steveh46)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/191 "2005-04-25T02:16:46Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > And what miracle of leftist economics is going to achieve this? Paying 1/2 of what I am paying now, for the same benefits? > > Really, how is that going to work? Read Irishgirl’s numbers on expenditures above. Then go out and find out more and you’ll change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/192 "2005-04-25T02:25:10Z")
Seems to me that if X% of the ppl are paying say $10,000 for health insurance (their cost may be less due to employer subsidisation) and the rest are either on some type of govt program or choose to do without. If UHC comes in, waves it’s magic wand and insures 100% of the population - taxpayers still have to pay the bill subsidizing for those who can’t work, choose not to work, or those who choose not to declare taxable income. So simple math would tell me that either the ppl currently contributing via insurance premiums are either going to be paying more to retain the same quality of service they now receive or will have to settle for less. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/193 "2005-04-25T02:30:46Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I already pay ~$10K a year in health insurance. Seems to me, if you think I should pay even more, you might want to advance some compelling _reason_ why I ought to do so, rather than name-calling. Shrug. When did I call you a name? You accused someone else of making a childish argument. Your argument is, in its entirety, “Mineminemine.” That’s all you’ve got. You can’t argue that the current system works better. You can’t argue that it costs less. You can’t argue that we’re getting the best health care. All you can say is, “Mineminemine!” It’s the only argument you’ve got. What’s funny is that the more you scream about how you don’t want to pay for others, the more your prices escalate and you pay and pay and pay and pay. And then the insurance companies count your money and giggle. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/194 "2005-04-25T02:34:16Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > The USA spends about twice the proportion of its GNP on healthcare as the UK- approximately 12% vs 6%. The USA spends a higher proportion of its GDP on health than any other country in the world. > > Most of this extra cost is from administrative costs (20% in the USA vs 5% in the UK) rather than an actual difference in care. > > Still, the WHO rates the USA 37th in the world, based on the following criteria: > > Overall level of population health > > Health inequalities or disparities within the population > > Overall health system responsiveness (patients satisfaction +how well the system works). > > Distribution of responsiveness (how well the system serves the poor vs the rich). > > Distribution of the financial burden within the system (who pays). > > The UK rates 18 and Ireland 19, while the top three health care systems in the world are in France, Italy and San Marino-followed closely by Andorra, Malta and Singapore. > > Something in the USA is deeply wrong with the health system, and thowing more money at it wouldn’t appear to be the solution. It’s not that the US healthcare system is broken, it’s that it’s not socialized medicine. Look at several of your grading points - it’s clear that any non-socialized system would be graded poorly. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/195 "2005-04-25T02:39:41Z")
> [@steveh46](#): > > Read Irishgirl’s numbers on expenditures above. Then go out and find out more and you’ll change your mind. Um, yeah, one Irish medical student’s opinion (and Ireland only ranks 19th in terms of healthcare, according to her own post) is very persuasive. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/196 "2005-04-25T02:39:59Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > So simple math would tell me that either the ppl currently contributing via insurance premiums are either going to be paying more to retain the same quality of service they now receive or will have to settle for less. Except our health care already costs more for less. We pay MORE. We get LESS. There is a bureaucratic nightmare in every hospital and insurance company. They have bureaucrats whose only job is to wrangle bureaucrats who deal with bureaucrats. In this thread we have someone whose job it is to weed through the bureaucratic tangle to find insurance policies for people. That’s his _job_. Where do you think the money to pay him comes from? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/197 "2005-04-25T02:40:41Z")
**flickster** , considering that a vast majority (myself included) have NO HEALTH CARE here in the US, I’d hate to see what you would consider “broken.” ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/198 "2005-04-25T02:48:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > When did I call you a name? You accused someone else of making a childish argument. Your argument is, in its entirety, “Mineminemine.” That’s all you’ve got. Wrong. Your side has made the argument that UHC is better, but has failed to provide any evidence that it would be so, other than “it’s fair and right”. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/199 "2005-04-25T02:49:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except our health care already costs more for less. We pay MORE. We get LESS. > > There is a bureaucratic nightmare in every hospital and insurance company. They have bureaucrats whose only job is to wrangle bureaucrats who deal with bureaucrats. > > In this thread we have someone whose job it is to weed through the bureaucratic tangle to find insurance policies for people. That’s his _job_. Where do you think the money to pay him comes from? And you think it would be any different under a UHC plan? :rolleyes: We would just be entering a whole new realm of bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/200 "2005-04-25T02:51:30Z")
Did anyone else see _60 Minutes_ tonight? There was a segment on “medical tourism”, where people travelled to Thailand or India for medical treatment. Made me think of this thread – the general cost was given as 10% of that in the US, with “better” (I put better in quotes just because I can’t really quantify it) care and facilities. Doctors in these hospitals had done stints in the US and the staff seemed to be entirely composed of RNs. The reason cited for the difference in cost? From what I gathered, lack of influence of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries were big. Of course, I’m sure that cheap labor and other factors play into it. In addition, this doesn’t address those who are too poor to just up and travel. Nonetheless, I have to wonder what effect it will have, if any, on the US healthcare industry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896.md?page=11)