# Where's my fucking affordable health care, you fucking fuck? \[lame\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896 "2005-04-18T14:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/341 "2005-05-02T21:20:28Z")
Bulleted point #2, for folks who don’t want to refer back to page one: > [@black455](#): > > [ul][li]Presiden’t Bush’s campaign pledge for an initiative to allow small businesses “collective bargaining” powers in health insurance negotiations. Not my ideal solution; I’m a social democrat, so I love me some proletarian revolution, but I can see how the notion could help. So I checked out his web site to see how everything is moving along.[/li] > Guess how much work they’ve done on the whole deal since he got inaugurated? > > You guessed right: [Jack. Shit.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/healthcare/)[/ul] > [@Weirddave](#): > > I was never very good at math, so could you please show me again how I’d be spending a lot less money? Thanks. Are you _really_ that obtuse? Because it should be pretty obvious that the per capita cost isn’t a literal head tax. If you use the same yard stick, it’s plain that the American system is more expensive. This is totally uncontroversial. Per capita expenditure in the U.S. is around $4200 USD. Per capita expenditure in Canada is around $2300 USD. For the same services – except everybody’s covered in Canada, and millions and millions of people are left in the lurch in the U.S. If you can put a good face on that without playing silly games like “Yeah, but what if we multiply the costs by the number of dependants plus one in the system that I don’t like,” knock yourself out. If we play that game in the other direction, your health care costs are closer to $20,000 for the family. Gotcha Ya! Except of course that that’s stupid. If you honestly figure it, [your health care costs in the neighborhood of twice as much as what other systems manage to cover _everyone_ with.](http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:w0nyQGIy8TMJ:www.oecdwash.org/DATA/STATS/healthexp60-2000.pdf+%224178%22+%22per+capita%22+health+%22united+states%22&hl=en) Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/342 "2005-05-02T21:45:11Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > These conversations occurred with people who had the foresight to protect their families by taking their money and buying their own health insurance I see. It’s lack of foresight if someone loses their job and gets sick. It’s lack of foresight if someone is uninsured, oh except when they choose to be underinsured, 'cause when they do like you did, that’s foresight! ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/343 "2005-05-02T22:09:00Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Bulleted point #2, for folks who don’t want to refer back to page one:Are you _really_ that obtuse? I’m starting to think yes, weirddave … boardname is getting more suitable by the minute. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/344 "2005-05-02T23:12:22Z")
So, since the numbers prove my case, you’re reduced to insults. Nice arguement you’ve got there. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/345 "2005-05-03T01:50:41Z")
How do you feel that the numbers prove your case, Dave? It _would_ prove your case, if it actually cost upwards of ten thousand dollars to cover a family of four in a socialized or partially socialized system. But it doesn’t. Nice, too, that your rosiest picture (which still is a bad bargain compared with the cost of socialized health care) leaves out out-of-pocket expenses. So it’s within your budget, so long as no one in your family actually needs hospitalization or medication? (Which I earnestly hope is and continues to be the case, BTW.) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/346 "2005-05-03T03:43:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > So, since the numbers prove my case, you’re reduced to insults. Nice arguement you’ve got there. Well, it’s the same tactic you used when I (and others) pointed out your hipocracy earlier in this thread… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/347 "2005-05-03T05:02:35Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Well, it’s the same tactic you used when I (and others) pointed out your hipocracy earlier in this thread… No, actually it’s not, because you absolutely failed to point out that I was doing anything hypocritical. Here’s a hint: You can jump up and down and scream “hypocrite” until you’re blue in the face, but your saying that doesn’t make it so. Words have specific definitions, you can’t change them to please yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/348 "2005-05-03T05:15:01Z")
Here’s the problem, Dave. You’re paying as much in taxes to support Medicare/Medicaid as Canadians are paying in taxes to support UHC. And then you’re paying your private health insurance premiums on top of that. So how in the heck are the numbers on your side here? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/349 "2005-05-03T05:42:28Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Here’s the problem, Dave. You’re paying as much in taxes to support Medicare/Medicaid as Canadians are paying in taxes to support UHC. And then you’re paying your private health insurance premiums on top of that. So how in the heck are the numbers on your side here? There is no possible way we are going to get a fair, objective answer from weirddave here. His entire way of making a living is based upon our system staying the way it is. He has too much personally invested in this to have the capability of changing his mind. We should just get Weirddave to admit this and we’ll save ourselves a lot of headaches. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/350 "2005-05-03T06:10:55Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Here’s the problem, Dave. You’re paying as much in taxes to support Medicare/Medicaid as Canadians are paying in taxes to support UHC. And then you’re paying your private health insurance premiums on top of that. So how in the heck are the numbers on your side here? Canada is the only western country that has a tax rate similar to that of the US that offers UHC, and they are also somewhat unique in that they have such a huge country but very few people. If the US had only 30 million people, we’d have had UHC long ago too, I bet. Even in Canada, it varies from Province to Province. Instead of being “universal”, some Provinces charge an additional premium for health coverage. Are you proposing the same for the US? Do you think a system where the residents of Virginia paid nothing extra for their health insurance, but the residents of Montana were required to pay additional premiums would fly here? As for the US, Medicare/Medicade won’t change. UHC would add a minimum of 50 million people on top of that, and likely a whole hell of a lot more than that( Does anyone really think that corporations are going to continue to foot the bill for employee benefits if there is a government program providing them? Anyone? Anyone?). Canada is a country of 30 Million. Holland has 16 million. Even the “big 3” in western Europe, the UK, France and Germany, have populations of 60 million, 60 million and 80 million respectively. The US has half again as many citizens as all three of those nations combined. Is the scale of what we’re talking about sinking in? What works in a country of 16 million or 30 million is not guaranteed to work in a country of 300 million. Even assuming all other costs stay exactly the same, I still haven’t gotten an answer for how UHC proponents propose to extend coverage to 50 million new people and still save me and everyone else money. I like pie, but when it’s served in the sky I say no thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/351 "2005-05-03T06:15:13Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > There is no possible way we are going to get a fair, objective answer from weirddave here. His entire way of making a living is based upon our system staying the way it is. He has too much personally invested in this to have the capability of changing his mind. We should just get Weirddave to admit this and we’ll save ourselves a lot of headaches. If you think this is true, then answer my objections. What you’re saying is basically senseless, boil it down and what I am is a salesman, I could go sell anything if I had to. I wouldn’t get the same sense of personal satisfaction that comes from helping other people everyday by selling Hondas or houses, but I bet I could make the same amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/352 "2005-05-03T08:22:51Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Canada is the only western country that has a tax rate similar to that of the US that offers UHC, and they are also somewhat unique in that they have such a huge country but very few people. If the US had only 30 million people, we’d have had UHC long ago too, I bet. Even in Canada, it varies from Province to Province. Instead of being “universal”, some Provinces charge an additional premium for health coverage. Are you proposing the same for the US? Do you think a system where the residents of Virginia paid nothing extra for their health insurance, but the residents of Montana were required to pay additional premiums would fly here? As for the US, Medicare/Medicade won’t change. UHC would add a minimum of 50 million people on top of that, and likely a whole hell of a lot more than that( Does anyone really think that corporations are going to continue to foot the bill for employee benefits if there is a government program providing them? Anyone? Anyone?). Canada is a country of 30 Million. Holland has 16 million. Even the “big 3” in western Europe, the UK, France and Germany, have populations of 60 million, 60 million and 80 million respectively. The US has half again as many citizens as all three of those nations combined. Is the scale of what we’re talking about sinking in? What works in a country of 16 million or 30 million is not guaranteed to work in a country of 300 million. Even assuming all other costs stay exactly the same, I still haven’t gotten an answer for how UHC proponents propose to extend coverage to 50 million new people and still save me and everyone else money. I like pie, but when it’s served in the sky I say no thanks. Another pointless argument. You could look at the U.S. as a collection of States, and you could look at the Europe as a whole. The level of organisation does not invalidate the method here. The question at the end here has been answered several times. As regards to this: > [@](#): > > So, since the numbers prove my case, you’re reduced to insults. Nice arguement you’ve got there. I’m not one for insults. For me, this is a factual observation, and I’m pretty much done talking to you. You’ve been insulting our intelligence long enough now. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/353 "2005-05-03T09:22:10Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Who pays for the positive rights you decide belong to you? The Bill of Rights is a document of negative rights (the rights to be left alone). Every time you assert a positive right (the right to something produced by someone else) you are infringing on others’ rights to be left alone. **We** pay for the positive rights that **we** decide belong to **us**. And as soon as we get our collective heads out of our collective selfish, backward, knuckle-dragging asses we will finally make the giant leap to civilized nation status by paying for universal healthcare. (Yep, that’s right–we’ll pay for it with TAXES; you know, the dues you pay to belong to such a wealthy, prosperous “club” [the USA]). As you may know but choose to ignore, paying upfront for a healthier population will save us oodles of dollars down the line because of, among other things, higher productivity, less time off work due to illness, and a decrease in the number of people with advanced illnesses that could have been slowed or halted entirely. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/354 "2005-05-03T10:47:25Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Here’s the problem, Dave. You’re paying as much in taxes to support Medicare/Medicaid as Canadians are paying in taxes to support UHC. And then you’re paying your private health insurance premiums on top of that. So how in the heck are the numbers on your side here? Are you talking total costs or costs per capita? If you’re just comparing total system costs, then you must also factor in the population difference. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/355 "2005-05-03T14:11:21Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Are you talking total costs or costs per capita? If you’re just comparing total system costs, then you must also factor in the population difference. I’m talking about per capita costs. You guys spend almost twice as much per capita as we do. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/356 "2005-05-03T14:49:47Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > If you think this is true, then answer my objections. What you’re saying is basically senseless, boil it down and what I am is a salesman, I could go sell anything if I had to. I wouldn’t get the same sense of personal satisfaction that comes from helping other people everyday by selling Hondas or houses, but I bet I could make the same amount of money. There aren’t that many salesperson jobs where you get paid for selling your product, and you even get paid for telling people to not buy your product, but to go use the government subsidized product instead. You were pretty saintly when stating that you gladly referred people to MHIP, but you didn’t mention that you get a referral fee for this. In fact, you not only signed up for government subsidized support for your wife, while simultaneously telling us why it’s bad that others get that, you probably even got paid for signing your wife up for it. That’s quite a gig, so I can’t blame you for not wanting to give it up. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/357 "2005-05-03T15:15:19Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > There aren’t that many salesperson jobs where you get paid for selling your product, and you even get paid for telling people to not buy your product, but to go use the government subsidized product instead. You were pretty saintly when stating that you gladly referred people to MHIP, but you didn’t mention that you get a referral fee for this. In fact, you not only signed up for government subsidized support for your wife, while simultaneously telling us why it’s bad that others get that, you probably even got paid for signing your wife up for it. > > That’s quite a gig, so I can’t blame you for not wanting to give it up. In the year and a half that MHIP has been available, I have received the $50 referral fee exactly one time. Most of the time I don’t even bother filling out the portion of the form with my license number and information anymore because they never pay. But hey, thank you for your concern. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/358 "2005-05-05T18:00:43Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315223) has an interesting take on private health costs in the US. > [@](#): > > What’s happening to the companies is no mystery: at the same time that they’re losing market share, GM and Ford are being eaten alive by costs for health care for current employees and retirees. Asian carmakers had a record 37.5% of U.S. sales of new cars and trucks in April, while sales dropped 3.9% at GM and 1.5% at Ford. GM has said it expects to pay $5.6 billion this year for employee health care. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896/359 "2005-05-05T18:32:13Z")
[Background article on the Japanese advantage](http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102080). > [@](#): > > Toyota’s health care costs are so negligible that they aren’t even a line item in the company’s financial statements. Toyota benefits both from the Japanese national health plan’s coverage of retirees’ medical needs and from the way that plan is structured. > > Health care is paid for through a combination of mandatory payroll deductions from employees and employers. The cost is spread equally among various employers. That means older companies with large numbers of retirees are not at a disadvantage compared to companies with fewer retirees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-my-fucking-affordable-health-care-you-fucking-fuck-lame/299896.md?page=17)