# Where's the debate with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808 "2012-09-15T19:05:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/21 "2012-09-16T17:20:28Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > The old _tu quoque_ argument. Apologists for Islam never tire of it, do they? > > If western civilization burned witches 400 years ago (and they did) then Islamist barbarity in the 21st century is safely immune from criticism. Gentlemen, choose your stones. This whore brought the rape on herself by showing her ankles! > > If some non-Muslim states like Jamaica and Uganda persecute homosexuals (and they do) we cannot say a word about the fact that seven Muslim countries have the death penalty for gays, a couple of dozen have punishments ranging from lashing to huge prison terms. and that not a single one recognizes gay relationships or protects the rights of its LGBT citizens. As long as you can pont to a single non-Muslim state that is homophobic, we may not say a word against the homophobia that predominates among Muslims, including Muslim immigrants to western countries. > > In another thread, I have seriously had the fact that William Tyndale was executed in friggin’ **1536** for translating the Bible into English quoted to me as another form of apologism for Islamist barbarity in the 21st century! > > It would be funny if it were not so sad. It’s not apology. It’s an attempt to demonstrate where on the society ladder these countries are. It is an argument for a claim that external glee and contempt go very little in having these countries pursue democracy. As for homophobic violence Google Belgrade or Moscow Pride Parade. Again, it is a ladder and if your only contribution is to look down in contempt and hate that really does not help to anyone but your own insecurities. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/22 "2012-09-16T19:36:00Z")
> [@Niceman](#): > > Why Are Muslims So Angry? > [Why Are Muslims So Angry? Ask Donald Rumsfeld | HuffPost UK Politics](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/why-are-muslims-so-angry-_b_1883574.html) Claiming that there’s “chaos in Libya” and “chaos in Syria” due to “the West” as Wright does, is complete bullshit. When dictators fall, there’s always going to be some chaos and Qaddafi was on his way out regardless of what the US did or didn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/23 "2012-09-16T19:48:26Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Considering how Catholics in BH fared, I could go and make a claim that if any of those countries was of some Christian flavour, they would not be in dire straits that they are now. If Palestinians were 90% Christians there would not be Israel-Palestine conflict. But that’s probably a different thread. That makes no sense. 10% of all Palestinians are Christians and historically they’ve been treated just as badly as their Muslim counterparts at the hands of the Israelis, have hated the Israelis/Jews/Yehudi as much as their Muslim counterparts and haven’t gained any more sympathy from the West. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/24 "2012-09-16T21:25:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That makes no sense. 10% of all Palestinians are Christians and historically they’ve been treated just as badly as their Muslim counterparts at the hands of the Israelis, have hated the Israelis/Jews/Yehudi as much as their Muslim counterparts and haven’t gained any more sympathy from the West. Sure. But I’m talking about numbers here. If there were 90% of Palestinian Christians that would mean that Palestinian Muslims are ultra small minority then all of the stories would have a different edge to it - Judaism vs. Christianity. Are you telling me that this would play just as okay with Western world as it plays out now? And even now, when they are under 2% Israel is concerned about the image in the US media as recent “60 Minutes” segment demonstrates. > [@](#): > > The Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, admitted that “Christian communities are living under duress” but argued that the stress placed on Christian communities in the Holy Land was a result of Islamic extremism and not the polices of the Israeli government. > **['60 Minutes' Segment on Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land Stirs Backlash](https://www.christianpost.com/news/60-minutes-segment-on-palestinian-christians-in-the-holy-land-stirs-backlash-74015/)** > > A new report on the state of Christians living in the Holy Land aired on CBS 60 Minutes last weekend has stirred controversy among some Christian and Jewish groups that have blasted the report as ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/25 "2012-09-16T21:53:58Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It’s not apology. It’s an attempt to demonstrate where on the society ladder these countries are. It is an argument for a claim that external glee and contempt go very little in having these countries pursue democracy. > > As for homophobic violence Google Belgrade or Moscow Pride Parade. > > Again, it is a ladder and if your only contribution is to look down in contempt and hate that really does not help to anyone but your own insecurities. Well, if there is homophobic violence in Belgrade I guess all these homophobic Muslim countries can continue their homocidal persecution immune from my criticism.:rolleyes: But just for fun, let’s turn the old _tu quoque_ argument around and use it AGAINST Islam and in favour of the west and Israel. Israel has taken over lands that used to belong to other people? So what? Muslims took over countless countries. Israel represses Palestinians? So what? Have you ever seen the centuries of oppression that Jews and Christians living under Muslim countries suffered, including the special tax they had to pay. Did you know that the method of collecting the dhimmi, or tax, was for the Muslim tax collector to grab the beard of the Christian or Jew and slap his face thoroughly before taking tyhe money to ensure he was properly humiliated? The US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? Well, they sincerely believed it was right for them to do so. Just like the Muslims who invaded Spain and remained there centuries until the Spanish people finally kicked them out in 1491. You see, this old joke of pretending that you can’t criticise modern Islam because of what people in the west did centuries ago is a game that can be played both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/26 "2012-09-16T22:09:01Z")
The fact is that Israel is a symptom of Islamic agression, hegemony and intolerance, not its cause. The attempt to wipe Israel off the map, and the 65 years of conflict that the forces of Islam have created with their obstinate refusal to recognize this tiny Jewish state has little to do with the Palestinians. Think how easily displaced Palestinians could have been resettled in the vast Arab world with just a bit of political will and some of the billions that Arab countries have spent over six decades to wage unrelenting war against Israel. Accepting and absorbing refugees is a normall, human practice that took place throughout the world in the previous century. Millions of Germans in East Prussia fled before the advancing Soviet army and were absorbed into present-day Germany. Millions of Muslims and Hindus moved to Pakistan and India respectively at partition in 1947. Israel has accepted hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe, Arab Countries, Ethiopia and Russia. If the Arab countries had been able to recognize the legitimacy of Israel within secure borders, how much could have been saved in military hardware on both sides for 65 years, and used for humanitarian and developmental purposes, do you suppose? Why can Israel never be accepted? Because once land has been conquered for Islam, it can never be given back to infidel control. Nothing Israel does to placate Muslim hostility can change that fact. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/27 "2012-09-16T22:40:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Why can Israel never be accepted? Because once land has been conquered for Islam, it can never be given back to infidel control. Well, that certainly explains the 520 years of continuous warfare that has been going on in Spain and Portugal between the Christians and Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/28 "2012-09-16T22:47:08Z")
Muslim outrage over supposed slights such as the trailers for “The Innocence of Muslims” on YouTube can be very selective or, in fact, hypocritical. Here is a [short scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHqXt_JNSt8)from an Arabic TV series “Al-Shatat”, Al-Mamnou TV, broadcast in Jordan in 2005 and probably in other Arabic countries. Tell me, do you find it at least as offensive as “The Innocence of Muslims”? It has also been pointed out that the same Arab countries in which people rioted over the Danish Cartoons of Mohammed are also countries in which horrible, anti-semitic cartoons are published regularly wiothout anyone batting an eye. Just out of interest, Google “Sales of Mein Kampf in Arabic” and see what you find. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/29 "2012-09-16T22:51:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, that certainly explains the 520 years of continuous warfare that has been going on in Spain and Portugal between the Christians and Muslims. There is a difference between wanting to reconquer former Muslim lands and being able to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/30 "2012-09-16T23:18:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, that certainly explains the 520 years of continuous warfare that has been going on in Spain and Portugal between the Christians and Muslims. As recently as 2010, Al Qaeda in Maghreb, has released a statement on an Al Qaeda-affiliated website calling for the reconquest of Spain in the name of Islam. Try Googling “Muslim reconquest of Spain” and see what you find. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/31 "2012-09-16T23:29:22Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Sure. > > But I’m talking about numbers here. If there were 90% of Palestinian Christians that would mean that Palestinian Muslims are ultra small minority then all of the stories would have a different edge to it - Judaism vs. Christianity. Are you telling me that this would play just as okay with Western world as it plays out now? When Palestinian Christians were hijacking airliners in the 70s was the media more sympathetic to them. For that matter, when Israel bombed Lebanon, a country that’s half-Christian, was it somehow treated differently than attacks on “Muslim” countries. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/32 "2012-09-16T23:33:34Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > There is a difference between wanting to reconquer former Muslim lands and being able to do it. > [@Valteron](#): > > As recently as 2010, Al Qaeda in Maghreb, has released a statement on an Al Qaeda-affiliated website calling for the reconquest of Spain in the name of Islam. > > Try Googling “Muslim reconquest of Spain” and see what you find. Your silly claim was that “once land has been conquered for Islam, it can never be given back to infidel control.” Claiming that they just could not keep it fails to explain why they never even attempted to reclaim it for half a millennium. Quoting a few nutjobs who share your beliefs fails to make your point, that was clearly intended to mean that the great mass of Muslims would feel that way. It also fails to explain why “Islam” surrendered Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and the states that, (for a while), made up Yugoslavia without continuing to make an effort to reclaim them. Again, a handful of extremist nutjobs do not express any core belief of Islam. (And you would be well advised to refrain from attempting to claim that a nutjob fringe of any group necessarily represents the core beliefs or ideals of that group.) ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/33 "2012-09-17T00:35:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your silly claim was that “once land has been conquered for Islam, it can never be given back to infidel control.” Claiming that they just could not keep it fails to explain why they never even attempted to reclaim it for half a millennium. > Quoting a few nutjobs who share your beliefs fails to make your point, that was clearly intended to mean that the great mass of Muslims would feel that way. > It also fails to explain why “Islam” surrendered Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and the states that, (for a while), made up Yugoslavia without continuing to make an effort to reclaim them. > Again, a handful of extremist nutjobs do not express any core belief of Islam. (And you would be well advised to refrain from attempting to claim that a nutjob fringe of any group necessarily represents the core beliefs or ideals of that group.) It is clearly a minority view in Islam right now, but who knows how many Muslims subscribe to it. As to why Islam did not attempt to reconquer Spain between 1491 and now, you have only to look at the relatiove military power of the Spanish compared to their Muslim neighbours across the Straits of Gilbraltar. Funny how nothing ever counts as a Muslim idea until 100% of Muslims believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/34 "2012-09-17T00:47:43Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Muslim outrage over supposed slights such as the trailers for “The Innocence of Muslims” on YouTube can be very selective or, in fact, hypocritical. The word is “manufactured”. Some Muslim leader wants to whip up a mob, he finds or creates some example of Western “offensive art” and waves it in front of the crowd. Not much different really than McCarthy waving a supposed list of Communists in the State Department. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/35 "2012-09-17T01:22:37Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Funny how nothing ever counts as a Muslim idea until 100% of Muslims believe it. Your straw man is silly as I have never claimed that a belief needs to be held by 100% of Muslims, however it does point to your apparent belief that anything counts as a Muslim idea if it is bad and you can point to even one Muslim who believes it. > [@Valteron](#): > > It is clearly a minority view in Islam right now, but who knows how many Muslims subscribe to it. As to why Islam did not attempt to reconquer Spain between 1491 and now, you have only to look at the relatiove military power of the Spanish compared to their Muslim neighbours across the Straits of Gilbraltar. Spain’s period as a world power barely lasted 200 years. The Ottoman Empire–sharing the Mediterranean–was a world power on multiple occasions between 1492 and 1914, with holdings as close as the Algerian coast across from Murcia during much of that time. They did not merely fail to reconquer Spain, they never made the attempt. For such an essential belief, that seems odd. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/36 "2012-09-17T01:25:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The word is “manufactured”. Some Muslim leader wants to whip up a mob, he finds or creates some example of Western “offensive art” and waves it in front of the crowd. Not much different really than McCarthy waving a supposed list of Communists in the State Department. Or Valteron waving his latest “discovered” Muslim outrage on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/37 "2012-09-17T01:31:47Z")
```auto [quote="tomndebb, post:35, topic:634808"] Your straw man is silly as I have never claimed that a belief needs to be held by 100% of Muslims, however it does point to your apparent belief that anything counts as a Muslim idea if it is bad and you can point to even one Muslim who believes it. ``` All I have ever claimed is that the idea of reconquering Spain exists in Islam. But with the growth of Islamism and the growth of the Muslim immigrant population in Spain, who knows how fast it will grow and how much currency it will gain? ```auto Spain's period as a world power barely lasted 200 years. The Ottoman Empire--sharing the Mediterranean--was a world power on multiple occasions between 1492 and 1914, with holdings as close as the Algerian coast across from Murcia during much of that time. They did not merely fail to reconquer Spain, they never made the attempt. For such an essential belief, that seems odd. [/QUOTE] ``` Probably because other European powers would have reacted violently at an attempt by the Ottoman Empire to conquer Spain. And by the 1800s, the Ottoman Empire was already known as the “sick man” of world politics. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/38 "2012-09-17T01:36:18Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > ```auto > > ``` > > Probably because other European powers would have reacted violently at an attempt by the Ottoman Empire to conquer Spain. And by the 1800s, the Ottoman Empire was already known as the “sick man” of world politics. Sorry, I seem to have screwed up the quotations on the last post. What I am saying is that any attempt to attack Spain by the Ottoman Empire would likely have met with a violent reaction by the major powers in Europe. Besides, by the1800s, the Ottoman Empire was already known as the “sick man” of world politics. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/39 "2012-09-17T01:40:45Z")
500 years and not one attempt to reconquer Spain by any Muslim empire, nation, or coalition. Your first claim remains silly. (And since you seem to want to invest so much energy defending the idea, why don’t you, (instead of weaseling away with “we don’t know how many”), actually provide evidence that it has ever been a serious belief with Islam rather than a fringe belief held by a few nutcases or zealots?) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808/40 "2012-09-17T01:51:40Z")
To add to what Tom is saying, the Ottoman Empire fought bitterly to hold onto and retake possessions they viewed as being stolen from them. However, they never held Al-Andulus. Those were other Muslim leaders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-debate-with-muslims/634808.md?page=3)