# Where's the line between advising someone to take steps to protect themselves and victim-blaming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322 "2019-12-03T19:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/301 "2019-12-09T02:30:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So this is “unsolicited advice”? > > [https://www.pbcommercial.com/zz/news/20191207/worried-about-ubers-safety-report-on-sexual-assaults-how-to-stay-safe-when-riding-uber-and-lyft](https://www.pbcommercial.com/zz/news/20191207/worried-about-ubers-safety-report-on-sexual-assaults-how-to-stay-safe-when-riding-uber-and-lyft) > \*Uber has for the first time released data on the number of passengers and drivers alleging they’ve been sexually assaulted, raising new concerns over the safety of the popular ride-hailing service. > > According to Uber’s safety report, there were more than 3,000 allegations of sexual assault last year. So how do you stay safe on Uber and Lyft? > > Here are some tips:\* > > Or this? > [10 Safety Tips for Females From Local FBI Agent | Fort Bragg, NC Patch](https://patch.com/north-carolina/fortbragg/10-safety-tips-for-females-from-local-fbi-agent) > \*Fort Bragg is a military community where many females are often alone due to a deployed spouse, or simply choosing to go out alone to meet up with friends. The Fort Bragg Patch collaborated with a local Special Agent with the FBI to come up with some precautionary measures for females. > > Timothy Gannon, Special Agent, provided safety tips for females. He foremost recommends not doing things that call attention to yourself. This could include choosing clothing that is flattering without being overly provocative.\* > > or this? > [Travel Safely: 13 Common Sense Tips From A Former FBI Special Agent](https://www.forbes.com/sites/irenelevine/2018/10/24/travel-safely-13-common-sense-tips-from-a-former-fbi-special-agent/#332ecfd212d0) > \*When traveling for business or leisure, travelers always need to be mindful of their personal safety. > > James Hamilton, Vice President of Protection Strategies for Gavin de Becker & Associates (GDBA), a prominent global security firm, brings a wealth of experience to his role. A former FBI Special Agent, Hamilton developed courses to protect high-level government officials, and served as a personal security advisor to a U.S. Attorney General and two FBI Directors. He also managed the FBI’s Overseas Survival Awareness Program, a valuable resource to officials and corporations working in high‐risk areas. > > [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) spoke with Mr. Hamilton, asking him to draw upon his expertise to provide some common sense reminders for ordinary travelers:\* The Uber example is interesting. One of the tips in the Uber driver training - On dropping off an unaccompanied lady at night - the driver SHOULDN’T wait to watch her reach the door safely. For me (as an Uber driver) this was always very situational and a mixture of location and state of intoxication. However I always took it as - how would I expect a date to drop my drunk daughter home. And I would absolutely expect him to make sure she reached her door safely. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/302 "2019-12-09T02:40:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We know carjackers don’t tend go after 20-year-old rust buckets, but instead go after late-model, high-end cars. And yet we don’t tell people to not drive nice automobiles if they want to avoid getting carjacked. I’d take issue with this - living in Singapore and then driving to Malaysia, it was pretty constant advice to “drive an older car” - even to the extent that some would deliberately borrow an older car for the trip or leave their preferred car at home. Avoiding certain places, parking “nose in” (modifying your behaviour) was also pretty constant advice. I did see “blame” for some people that were victims of those sorts of crime, as people “courting” the crime due to their behaviour. I also think - re the date rapist, that there absolutely are men (I don’t know how many) out there who set out to get women too drunk to resist / too drunk to care. they try to create the situation where they separate the drunk from the herd, then take her to their place over weak / incoherent objections. Stopping just shy of violent force but definitely over the line of consent. And I think these sorts of men are responsible for a LOT of rapes - as many as 1 every weekend for multiple years ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/303 "2019-12-09T02:51:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So this is “unsolicited advice”? > > {snip} > > Or this? > [10 Safety Tips for Females From Local FBI Agent | Fort Bragg, NC Patch](https://patch.com/north-carolina/fortbragg/10-safety-tips-for-females-from-local-fbi-agent) > \*Fort Bragg is a military community where many females are often alone due to a deployed spouse, or simply choosing to go out alone to meet up with friends. The Fort Bragg Patch collaborated with a local Special Agent with the FBI to come up with some precautionary measures for females. > > Timothy Gannon, Special Agent, provided safety tips for females. He foremost recommends not doing things that call attention to yourself. This could include choosing clothing that is flattering without being overly provocative.\* Okay, so no one else has a problem with how this reads? Just me? Okay. 1. So he’s lost with me “females”. They are called _women_, Mr. Gannon. 2. Fort Bragg is a military community _where many women work_. Cuz women are in the army; they aren’t just spouses and hangout buddies. 3. You mean to tell me that just being alone on a military base endangers women? Like, you’d think it would be one of the safest places since, you know, we generally don’t assume servicemen are criminals. And if we do assume that, then I’m concerned that we are giving these people guns and granting them access to missiles. 4. Calling attention to yourself means what exactly, when you are a “female” walking alone on a base where rapists apparently are lurking. And thanks for giving us permission to wear flattering clothing, Mr. Gannon, but how does one repel a rapist while committing the crime of being attractive in public? If you’re cute enough to turn heads on a regular basis, regardless if you’re dressing provocatively or not, then I guess you’re going to need an escort if you want to walk around Fort Bragg. (The escort will need to be a woman, BTW.) 5. But let’s back up a little. His _foremost_ advice is this? I’d think it would be actually be something more practical like make yourself a hard target by walking fast or carrying a baseball bat. But nope, just an appeal to the “looking too sexy makes men rape you” trope. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/304 "2019-12-09T03:32:31Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I also think - re the date rapist, that there absolutely are men (I don’t know how many) out there who set out to get women too drunk to resist / too drunk to care. they try to create the situation where they separate the drunk from the herd, then take her to their place over weak / incoherent objections. Stopping just shy of violent force but definitely over the line of consent. And I think these sorts of men are responsible for a LOT of rapes - as many as 1 every weekend for multiple years You’ve concocted one story in your head. A story with a completely made-up statistic, to boot. But while you’re trying to score a point in a debate no one is having with you, you seem to be neglecting the more common situation where the woman has gotten her buzz on and is more than eager to “get away from the herd” because she’s on a freakin’ date and lots of people–including women–want to have sex when they are on a date. And it’s kind of hard to have sex with someone when you are in a “herd”, so of course you would go with the guy back to his place. There’s no advice that you can give a woman in this predicament that wouldn’t also result in her not getting any sex. You may not think that’s important, but it is. We can all conceive of a situation where there are red flags waving in everyone’s faces. But most time, the Red Flags of Future Rape[sup]TM[/sup] are also the Green Flags of Future Sex[sup]TM[/sup]. A woman who makes it a habit to run away from a man who suggests multiple times they go hang out somewhere after dinner is a woman who isn’t going to get very far in the modern dating game. And I don’t know very many men who would be OK being treated like they are a rapist just because they are a little too assertive with their flirt game. **you with the face** , good catch with that asinine article. I didn’t even look at that jibber-jabber and it was right there in **DrDeth’s** post. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/305 "2019-12-09T03:52:48Z")
Exactly. Think of the woman who is never alone with a boy in a dorm room, or who never goes to a party with mostly strangers as the date of a crush, or who never ends up walking to an all night coffee house with a boy from a night class who she fell into conversation with. The start of rape looks a lot like the start of love, but women are supposed to be able to tell the difference far in advance. I guess we should be listening to the ambient music. It always gives the bad guy away in movies. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/306 "2019-12-09T03:52:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Okay, so no one else has a problem with how this reads? Just me? Okay. > > 1. So he’s lost with me “females”. They are called _women_, Mr. Gannon. > … So, you’re not even going to take advice from the freaken FBI.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/307 "2019-12-09T03:58:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you’re not even going to take advice from the freaken FBI.:rolleyes: …it was bullshit advice. Can you quantify what is or isn’t “being overly provocative?” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/308 "2019-12-09T04:00:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you’re not even going to take advice from the freaken FBI.:rolleyes: 1. That’s not the FBI, it’s a local newspaper and a local FBI agent. We don’t know that he has any training in any of this. It’s no different from interviewing a local cop for his views. 2. That’s a puff piece from a military base newspaper 8 years ago. A ton has changed since then. One, we’ve realized that many of the “rape rules” we thought were common sense actually weren’t and two, we’ve realized that US military bases are, and especially were, ground zero for victim blaming tactics to limit reports of rape. So I’m not real prone to look at a piece of military propaganda from 2012 for a keen understanding of the criminology of rape. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/309 "2019-12-09T04:02:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it was bullshit advice. Can you quantify what is or isn’t “being overly provocative?” Duh. If you get raped, it was overly provocative. If you don’t get propositioned, it wasn’t dd’s lattering enough, which is also a no-go. Our boys shouldn’t have to look at a bunch of fat ugly hags in loose sacks, either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/310 "2019-12-09T04:05:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you’re not even going to take advice from the freaken FBI.:rolleyes: Nobody talked about whether you should take advice from the freaken [sic] FBI. The question is whether you should take advice from: 1. An agent who has no specific qualifications in sexual assault cases (Google the dude, you’ll find him as a witness in drug cases), and more importantly, 2. who isn’t speaking in his official capacity at this event. The guy may have been great (he’s retired now) at collaring drug smugglers for all I know. But there’s no particular reason why he should be regarded as knowledgeable about sexual assault cases. Being in the FBI doesn’t impart expertise in all matters criminal. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/311 "2019-12-09T04:12:04Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Exactly. Think of the woman who is never alone with a boy in a dorm room, or who never goes to a party with mostly strangers as the date of a crush, or who never ends up walking to an all night coffee house with a boy from a night class who she fell into conversation with. The start of rape looks a lot like the start of love, but women are supposed to be able to tell the difference far in advance. I guess we should be listening to the ambient music. It always gives the bad guy away in movies. Everyone should have a theater full of black people watching their lives. That way, all we would have to do is wait for someone to shout at us “FOOL, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! THE MONSTER IS IN THAT ROOM!! DON’T GO IN THERE!!” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/312 "2019-12-09T04:17:48Z")
I honestly don’t know how I am managing without that. Do you think they’d tell me “Girl, don’t eat that. You will regret that later.”? That’s more what I need at this age. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/313 "2019-12-09T04:20:45Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Thanks for this and your other posts, Manda JO. I haven’t been able to post for the past couple of days, only partly because I’ve been traveling. But you said most of what I wanted to say. > > But there is an anecdotal data point I want to make. And I wrote it out and read it and I couldnt bring myself to post it. But here’s the short version. > > I also think the 1 in 50 is high. And the reason I think it’s high is that I’ve never been raped, and I spent several years engaging in **EXTREMELY** risky behavior. **INSANELY** risky behavior. I hung out in nightclubs and drank a lot and took lots of drugs. I left the clubs with men i’d just met all the time. Sometimes I had enthusiastically consensual, if drunken, sex with them but more often I didn’t. I used to drive around with this low level drug dealer that delivered to bachelor parties. And I’d stick around, because being the only girl at a bachelor party = lots of free drugs. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg, I did crazy risky shit like that all the time, for several years. I’m too embarrassed to post the long version. > > And I never got raped because I never crossed paths with a rapist. No one ever forced themselves on me, or even tried to. No one ever tried to do anything sexual with me if I was passed out or unable to consent. And I didn’t dress like a nun either. So there’s pretty much no level of risky behavior that will make me shift the blame to the victim. > > That’s not to excuse the behavior of people that do stuff like I used to do. The need to take a good long look at the ways they make themselves vulnerable. My friends used to tell me I was lucky nothing bad had happened to me, and they were right. But I’m not talking about stuff like parking garages at night or going to bars or even taking a walk at night with a man you just met. I’m talking about pathologically self-destruction. I’m echoing the tremendous thanks to Manda Jo. My aunt was raped while in medical school. She wasn’t on a date; she went to study with a classmate. He raped her. Me? I’ve gone to school with mostly men. I’ve had multiple late nights studying with 1 or more men. I’ve never been raped. I work with mostly men. I have to travel for work and usually travel by myself until I meet with my team. I’m often the only woman in the team. Never been raped. I’m new to my current team and several of the team members drink to excess (blackout, vomiting, can’t remember the next day); I have no doubt that if that were to happen to me that they’d treat me the same way they treat each other and ensure I was okay. I just got back from a week trip for work. I was the only woman in a team of 5; there were late nights and I never once felt unsafe with each other. GTFO with the victim blaming comments around if someone is the only woman that it’s a “dangerous situation.” That’s career limiting. GTFO with being by alone at night is dangerous; again that’s career limiting and victim blaming. And GTFO with the how someone is dressed. It’s a “Just so” story. There are multiple reports of 80 and 90 year old women being raped. Pretty sure they weren’t dressed provocatively. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/314 "2019-12-09T12:13:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I honestly don’t know how I am managing without that. Do you think they’d tell me “Girl, don’t eat that. You will regret that later.”? That’s more what I need at this age. Black people just specialize in monsters, sorry. You’ll have to find another ethnicity for body-shaming. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/315 "2019-12-09T14:16:06Z")
The thing about that Fort Bragg piece is that ostensibly it’s about crime in general. Not just rape and sexual assault. So it’s all the more puzzling that it was directed at women. Aren’t men more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime? [The answer is yes.](https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=955) They are also twice as likely to be the victim of carjacking. So why are women singled out? If your aim is to help prevent victimization, wouldn’t it make sense to make your message inclusive to both genders? Common sense would say so. But in truth, we know that men would laugh or take offense if anyone ever suggested they abstain from drinking (at a bar, no less) or not go out after midnight. They would also find it strange to be admonished not to catch rides with strangers (apparently _giving_ rides to strangers is all gravy). You’d think “don’t flaunt flashy jewelry or bring large amounts of cash when going to a bar” would be exactly the kind of message a man should hear, but nope. Only the “females” need to be told this, even though women typically aren’t the ones whipping out bills to cover tabs and what not. And the closing is a real gem: > [@](#): > > Ladies, have a plan and make others aware of it. Do you have an emergency ‘code’ word if you are in danger. Something that simple via text or in a conversation could make a difference. Go over scenarios with your family or friends and be ready to act. If a stranger started walking over to your car, late at night as you were getting in, what would you do? The paternalistic overtones here knock me out of my chair. “Ladies” not only have to devise a plan that no one expects the fellas to have, but they have to enlist a network of others into this plan. Coming up with code words and rehearsing scenarios and imagining themselves being threatened by strangers. The main takeaway of this article is that crime happens when women fail to “proactively make wise decisions”, as its expressed in the opening. Implied is that men are safe from crime because either they are not targeted by criminals or they are inherently competent enough to protect themselves in a way that women aren’t. A cursory review of crime stats shows both assumptions are not only false, but hugely false. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/316 "2019-12-09T15:02:05Z")
Re paternalism. I have a co-worker friend I walk home with sometimes. We have decades of experience of urban walking under our belts. We have another coworker who loves to give the two of us advice on an assortment of walking-related topics. “You know, you two really should carry water with you when it is hot.” “You know, you two really should walk on the shady side of the street when it is hot.” “You know, you two really should go down Main Street since it isn’t as hilly.” “You know, you two really should carry an umbrella with you just in case it rains.” Only someone who thinks we are idiots would give us this kind of advice. I mean, seriously, there isn’t a mobile creature on this planet who doesn’t know about the shade. That is instinctual knowledge or pretty damn near it. And yet my coworker can deliver that advice to us with a straight face because we are women. Women are idiots with no basic instincts or common sense, you see. But my friend and I don’t say anything to this guy because we don’t want to deal with his butthurt. Plus, we understand that he is just trying to be helpful. But I think we probably should say something to him one of these days instead of laughing at him behind his back. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/317 "2019-12-09T15:10:55Z")
Let’s not ignore that all this “good advice” has a very important unintended consequence: It provides an easy justification for men inclined to sexually assault a woman. Women- don’t wear provocative clothes! So, if she’s wearing provocative clothes she wants it. Women- don’t walk alone! So, if she’s walking alone she’s stupid and an easy mark. Women- don’t ignore your drink! So, if she abandoned her drink, she knew what’s she was in for. Women- be prepared to always fight back! So, if she doesn’t have mace she is ok with this. It’s yet another narrative in which women are ultimately responsible for men’s behavior, and the lack of an overt act on women’s part is tacit approval of men’s bad behaviors. You want women to be safer? Talk to the men instead. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/318 "2019-12-09T16:10:29Z")
I really wish that the earlier posters in this thread would explain what restrictions they DO think reasonable and prudent women are currently not following/unaware of. You guys seem to think the incidence of rape is higher than it needs to be because women are foolishly . . .what? I’m not being coy, or setting a trap. I honestly don’t know what y’alls point even is. Other than “don’t get incoherently drunk”, what is this secret message that needs to be spread? I am sincerely asking because everything I can think of is either blindingly obvious, useless, or unreasonably restrictive given the level of actual risk. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/319 "2019-12-09T16:38:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I really wish that the earlier posters in this thread would explain what restrictions they DO think reasonable and prudent women are currently not following/unaware of. You guys seem to think the incidence of rape is higher than it needs to be because women are foolishly . . .what? > > I’m not being coy, or setting a trap. I honestly don’t know what y’alls point even is. Other than “don’t get incoherently drunk”, what is this secret message that needs to be spread? > > I am sincerely asking because everything I can think of is either blindingly obvious, useless, or unreasonably restrictive given the level of actual risk. I think IvoryTowerDenizen just answered you above. Depending on the poster, it’s a mix of men not thinking items through, desiring to police women’s lives or being totally fine with women’s lives being very restricted. Who was the poster who said in a prior thread that women shouldn’t walk around in gym clothes? It’s been said before that women shouldn’t walk alone at night…even to their car. Given there are ~14 hours of darkness in winter in many locations, that would prohibit women from any job or even running errands. But it’s the same posters who repeat the same admonitions and then run away from each thread when asked to provide specifics. And they’ll pop right back up in the next thread about this topic instead of actually detailing specifics. I’d be interested in seeing their specifics as well; have some courage and own your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/320 "2019-12-09T16:42:49Z")
I want to post the link to the Atlantic story on this subject > **[An Epidemic of Disbelief](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/an-epidemic-of-disbelief/592807/)** > > What new research reveals about sexual predators, and why police fail to catch them Here’s a couple of quotes What struck her first was the sheer number of repeat offenders. Of the rape kits containing DNA that generated a CODIS hit, nearly 1 in 5 pointed to a serial rapist, giving Cleveland investigators leads on some 480 serial predators to date. On a practical level, this suggested that every allegation of rape should be investigated as if it might have been committed by a repeat offender. “The way we’ve traditionally thought of sexual assault is this he said/she said situation, where they investigate the sexual assault in isolation.” Lovell told me. Instead, detectives should search for other victims or other crimes committed nearby, always presuming that the rapist might have attacked before. We make those assumptions with murder, with burglary, with almost any other crime, but not the sexual assault of an adult. And Most rapes, of course, are not committed by strangers. Eighty percent of the time the rapist is someone the woman knows…snip… So police saw little reason to send off those rape kits: the man’s identity was never in doubt. But the Cleveland study illuminated another insight - one that shows the tragic consequences of failing to test “acquaintance rape” kits…snip… When Cleveland investigators uploaded the data from acquaintance-rape kits, they were surprised by how often the results matched DNA from unsolved stranger rapes. The task force identified dozens of mystery rapists this way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=17)