# Where's the line between advising someone to take steps to protect themselves and victim-blaming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322 "2019-12-03T19:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/81 "2019-12-04T16:27:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > One reason - unfair though it may be - that society puts the onus on would-be victims to watch their own behavior, rather than that of criminals, is because it’s far easier to modify the former’s behavior than the latter. > > It’s the reason the U.S. military trains its soldiers to beware of and avoid roadside IEDs planted by terrorists in Iraq, rather than lecture those terrorists about how IED bombs are wrong and they shouldn’t be planting them. Telling me not to go outside alone at night is not the same as telling soldier to look for IEDs. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The advice is the same, the statistics are not. My 1.83m son has less of a risk walking alone outside than my 1.63m daughter, it’s a given. Also, the consequences are different and worse for her should something bad happen. It sucks, for sure, but it’s true. > > The risk of a drunken girl being raped are much higher than for a boy. So, it’s always “don’t get drunk” but also realising the real-world differences. > > Blaming? I wouldn’t do it to a specific person in most circumstances, never in rape. As a general advice, however, it is sensible to reduce your chances of something bad happening to you by evil people’s hands. But here’s the deal. Maybe your chance of being assaulted in our work parking lot after dark is 1/1 million and mine is 1/500,000. Both are pretty damn minuscule. But the idea that the “danger is higher” is enough for people to decide it’s “only prudent” that I radically curtail my actions. What makes me think this isn’t about actual risk is that if there’s a place down the road where YOUR risk is 1/500,000 and mine is 1/250,000, the same logic will apply: my risk is greater, so I should be changing my actions, but yours is the baseline, so you should get the baseline freedom of action. Even though your risk at Place B is the same as mine at Site A. This isn’t about reducing assault. It’s about preserving the idea that women have to massively curtail their lives in ways that men do not because they are different, fragile, other. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/82 "2019-12-04T16:42:02Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Do y’all know the old joke where the punchline is “we’ve established you’re a whore, now we are just haggling over price”? I feel like that’s what this thread is about. Some people are really attached to the idea that conceptually it has to be possible, under extreme circumstances, to say that a victims actions make him/her to some degree culpable. Like, the actual cases don’t matter, just that it must be theoretically true. Then I feel like once that’s established, it can be used as a beachhead to justify increasingly onerous restrictions on women’s freedom of movement and expression. It’s particularly disingenuous to have it conflated with negative outcomes due to accidents: We all know you’re safer when you wear a helmet while riding, so if your brains are all over the road, it’s because you didn’t take necessary precautions. Similarly, if she’d only taken the precaution of wearing the longer skirt, she’d have avoided being accidentally raped. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/83 "2019-12-04T16:44:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Nobody’s saying that there aren’t things you can do to mitigate being robbed or raped. What they’re saying is that if it does happen, you didn’t cause it because your mitigation efforts weren’t complete, or didn’t work, or weren’t the right ones. The robber or rapist is the one who caused it, and the presence or absence of your mitigation efforts doesn’t affect his actions or responsibility in any way. > > To take it to a very far extreme, it’s like arguing that that it’s your fault you got mugged because you left your home and went out in public where robbers might be lurking. We all know this is completely absurd, but it’s just an extreme example of victim blaming- it’s the same argument that you didn’t park in a lighted area/dress like a nun/, so it’s your fault that you got robbed, only to a different degree. > > Mitigation efforts are separate- they’re acknowledging that these assholes exist and are lurking out there, and trying to mitigate the chance you’ll run into them and/or mitigate the effects if you do. > > Think of them like you might think of smoke detectors; they help people get out when there’s a fire. But not having smoke detectors doesn’t make it your fault when a fire breaks out- that’s still the fault of the faulty wiring or pyromaniac child or whatever. I agree. At the other end, there could be actions which are so irresponsible that it might be considered entrapment if someone commits a crime. For example, if you put a $100 bill under your windshield wiper of your car, it’s a virtual certainty that it is going to get stolen, and it won’t necessarily be from a hardened criminal. A normal passerby might be tempted to take it. That person is still committing a crime and can go to jail for it, but the owner of the bill had a significant part of creating the situation which led to it happening. Our society does place blame on the effects of lack of mitigation. If a landlord does not supply working smoke detectors according to building codes, they will be held liable for damages for the effect of a fire in the property. Even though they didn’t cause the fire, their actions made the effects of the much greater and they will be held responsible for that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/84 "2019-12-04T16:48:39Z")
For me, I don’t think it’s just a matter of victim blaming. Saying the mother of a rape victim was a horrible mom and should have had the kids removed, isn’t technically victim blaming but it’s changing the subject. If we are talking about getting a dick drawn on your forehead, ok whatever. But when we’re talking about rape, or especially some organized gang rape, how the fuck can you justify changing the subject? And the reason is often, they are bad actors. They don’t want to discuss the problems around sexual assault in our society. They don’t want you to either. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/85 "2019-12-04T16:53:26Z")
Oh, but it’s so easy for a rapist to come up with an excuse to blame the victim. She was wearing a tight skirt. She was walking alone after dark. She looked suggestively at me. Another old joke: Her mouth said NO but her eyes said Yes? Ask yourself which one will be testifying at your trial for rape. Read about the [1989 Glen Rock rape trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Ridge_rape). The defense attorneys tried to blame the mentally handicapped 17 year old victim, saying it happened because “boys will be boys.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/86 "2019-12-04T16:55:12Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I agree. At the other end, there could be actions which are so irresponsible that it might be considered entrapment if someone commits a crime. Describe an action that is sufficiently irresponsible that it may be considered as “entrapment” if it results in a woman being assaulted/raped. > [@filmore](#): > > For example, if you put a $100 bill under your windshield wiper of your car … Do we need to discuss the differences between property crimes and assault crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/87 "2019-12-04T17:11:21Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You and I personally or the people in this thread? Why don’t we start with you and I, then slowly add the other posters until we build a consensus. Can we stipulate that the “line” between victim-blaming and not-victim-blaming is when blame/culpability is lifted off the perpetrator and placed on the victim. Whether explicitly, or implicitly (as with your examples of unreasonable questioning that are just nonsensical if not shifting blame). That doesn’t mean not-victim-blaming makes for good advice, though. That’s what I think, and I think you agree. What do you say? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/88 "2019-12-04T17:20:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The advice is the same, the statistics are not. My 1.83m son has less of a risk walking alone outside than my 1.63m daughter, it’s a given. Also, the consequences are different and worse for her should something bad happen. It sucks, for sure, but it’s true. But why does the differing consequences matter here? A person supporting a large family has more to lose by, say, drinking and driving than a person only supporting himself. But we tell both individuals not to drink and drive. We don’t have special PSAs just targeting people with a lot to lose. Walking alone at night is risky behavior for everyone. Criminals can stab or shoot a guy just as easily as they can stab or shoot a woman. A six-foot tall, 280 lb attacker can take down 5’ 8" tall, 160 lb guy just as easily as he can take down a 5’6" tall, 140 lb woman. The attacker may mug the guy and rape the woman, but so the fuck what? Both of those are violent crimes. Robbery is reported more than twice as frequently than rape. Men are more likely to be the victim of violent crime. So it actually makes more sense to worry more about your male children than your female children, if we are just going by national statistics. I had a co-worker a few years ago who said he would never let his hypothetical teenaged daughter walk to places in his suburban neighborhood alone. Because she might be kidnapped! But kidnapping is not a crime that happens just to teenaged girls. Boys can be kidnapped just as easily as girls. Boys are easy to snatch and grab from behind. Boys are easy to intimidate with a gun. Hell, adults can be kidnapped just as easily as teenagers. I walk alone all the time. And yet it has never dawned on me to be on the look-out for kidnappers. What the hell am I thinking, tempting the fates like that? > [@](#): > > The risk of a drunken girl being raped are much higher than for a boy. So, it’s always “don’t get drunk” but also realising the real-world differences. I think violent crime is violent crime. Rape is bad, but so is getting stabbed in a bar fight or getting mugged. Statistically speaking, non-sexual violence is more likely to occur than sexual violence. > [@](#): > > Blaming? I wouldn’t do it to a specific person in most circumstances, never in rape. As a general advice, however, it is sensible to reduce your chances of something bad happening to you by evil people’s hands. But that risk reduction carries its own risks. Every decision exacts a price. A woman who refuses to go outdoors alone at night is a woman who is making her life harder than it has to be. It means she will not take a night class at the community center because the class is over at 9:00 and she will have to wait for the 9:30 bus stop all by herself. It means she will turn down the job opportunity in the big city, because she can’t afford to live in a safest neighborhood. It means she will refuse to work late, even if working late sometimes is the only way for her to get a promotion. People talk about women being neurotic worrywarts and then turn around and preach to them about how dangerous and scary the world is. Perhaps if we stopped telling girls and women they need to be extra cautious, girls and women would be more willing to take on the kind of risks that are associated with success. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/89 "2019-12-04T17:21:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Describe an action that is sufficiently irresponsible that it may be considered as “entrapment” if it results in a woman being assaulted/raped. > > Do we need to discuss the differences between property crimes and assault crimes? Because of how the OP is written, I am inferring that the thread was intended to discuss victim blaming in a general case rather than specifically discussing sexual assault. My examples were in no way meant to be compared with sexual assault. They were examples talking about the general case and were meant for standalone discussion. If the OP would like to clarify if that he wants to discuss this in the framework of sexual assault, I will participate in that line of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/90 "2019-12-04T17:37:30Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Because of how the OP is written, I am inferring that the thread was intended to discuss victim blaming in a general case rather than specifically discussing sexual assault. My examples were in no way meant to be compared with sexual assault. They were examples talking about the general case and were meant for standalone discussion. If the OP would like to clarify if that he wants to discuss this in the framework of sexual assault, I will participate in that line of discussion. Ah, fair enough. My position is that you can’t (or shouldn’t) conflate the examples the OP used to discuss the topic of “victim blaming”. The guy who blows a couple of fingers off his hand because he was horsing around with powerful fire crackers is a victim of his poor judgement and actions. I have no qualms about victim blaming in this case. It’s my understanding that those packages are properly labeled and there exists a reasonable expectations that proper precautions should have been taken but were deliberately ignored. The situation of a pedestrian being hit by a car is more complicated for reasons I elaborated in an earlier post. A woman who was sexually assaulted because she was an easy target due to being passed out drunk, is an entirely different matter from the two examples above. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/91 "2019-12-04T17:46:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Describe an action that is sufficiently irresponsible that it may be considered as “entrapment” if it results in a woman being assaulted/raped. > > Do we need to discuss the differences between property crimes and assault crimes? I’ll pick up the torch, then. The only action I can think of that might be considered entrapment would be inviting the “perp” to play out a rape fantasy, failing to set up or use a safeword, and then accusing him of rape. Obviously this doesn’t apply for children, regardless of how they present themselves. I don’t think there’s a difference between property crimes and assault crimes when it comes to victim blaming. In the money-on-the-windshield example, if the judge lightens the perp’s sentence due to the victim’s negligence, that is victim-blaming. If people tell the victim that he or she asked to be robbed, or imply that it is partially their fault _for being robbed_, that is victim-blaming. If people take pains to differentiate between “don’t leave money on your windshield, you dope” and “it’s your fault you were robbed”, it doesn’t have to be victim-blaming. In a case of sexual assault, if the judge lightens the perp’s sentence due to the victim’s negligence, that is victim-blaming (I am assuming there was real negligence because sexual assault does not imply victim negligence). If people tell the victim that he or she asked to be assaulted, or imply that it is partially their fault _for being assaulted_, that is victim-blaming. If people take pains to differentiate between “don’t [be so negligent], you dope” and “it’s your fault you were assaulted”, it doesn’t have to be victim-blaming. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/92 "2019-12-04T17:59:59Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Like, the actual cases don’t matter, just that it must be theoretically true. Then I feel like once that’s established, it can be used as a beachhead to justify increasingly onerous restrictions on women’s freedom of movement and expression. This is a very interesting point, but one that I tend to find myself on precisely the opposite side of. That is, it’s a situation where people who hold positions I generally support, agree with, or sympathize with; make overbroad factual-sounding claims in an effort to solidify their position, which bugs me, even as I also support that position. Suppose we did a (obviously very unethical) study where one group of women rigorously followed all the generic minimize-your-chances-of-being-raped advice and another group of women just lived their lives in a “normal” fashion. Is it possible that the first group would suffer statistically significant fewer rapes than the second group? It certainly seems plausible to me, although I certainly can’t claim to know for certain. But if that study did in fact somehow happen and had that result, that wouldn’t prove: -that women deserve to be raped -that men don’t deserve to be punished for committing rape -that women “should” follow any specific one of those pieces of advice or anything else. Again, I’m not claiming that that _would_ be the result of the study… but I feel like a lot of people in threads of this sort are asserting with great confidence that if the study were done, there would be NO difference at all, that all the minimize-your-risk advice is 100% worthless. Or that even discussing such advice is somehow letting the patriarchy win. Now, again, it might be true that the advice is 100% worthless… but I’ve certainly not seen sufficient evidence to lead me to view it as established truth, which is how some people seem to treat it. And their reasons for so treating it have nothing to do with its actual truth value, or any evidence that may or may not exist, but for the reasons that you yourself just articulated, which is that if it were true then assholes could misuse that truth to make bad arguments. And that’s not a good reason to make a claim, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/93 "2019-12-04T18:03:32Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You can give her the same advice you give your sons. You can tell her not to get so drunk that her judgment is significantly impaired–which you should also tell your sons So, if I tell both my daughter and my son the same thing, it stops being “implicit victim blaming”? How does that work? > [@](#): > > Beyond that, I think you have to seriously consider whether the safety advice you are giving is reasonable and effective. If you’re telling her not to dress in short skirts, for her safety, that’s like telling her not to go to bed with wet hair, she’ll get sick. There’s no evidence that it’s true. Except telling her to moderate her dress does actual damage to her. If you are telling her not to drive on the interstate alone, not to live in the city alone, not to join a gym but to buy a treadmill instead, not to take a job if she will have to travel alone or with men, not to go to the mall if the only parking spot she can get is far away, then I think you are basically asking her to give up a tremendous amount of quality of life to only very mildly mitigate her risk, and that you should consider if you’d accept the same restrictions on your life for the same reduction in risk. I wouldn’t tell my daughter, or my son, any of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/94 "2019-12-04T18:07:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There is no advice you should be giving your daughter that you also shouldn’t give to your son. > > If you would never think to tell your son to avoid walking outside alone, then you should never think to tell your daughter this either. > > If you tell your daughter to not drink to the point of drunkenness, then you should tell your son the same thing. What about “Don’t walk around outside with no shirt on” ? Just kidding. I can’t think of one piece of advice that I’ve given my daughter that I haven’t likewise told my son. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/95 "2019-12-04T18:18:52Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Again, I’m not claiming that that _would_ be the result of the study… but I feel like a lot of people in threads of this sort are asserting with great confidence that if the study were done, there would be NO difference at all, that all the minimize-your-risk advice is 100% worthless. Or that even discussing such advice is somehow letting the patriarchy win. I feel like that the default belief in society is that that study would show dramatic rape reduction, except you’d have to do it the opposite way. You’d have to have the control group keep doing all the things women are currently doing, and you’d have to have the experimental group drop those behaviors are identified as “risky”. The problem is that all these restrictive rules are presented as “common sense”. But common sense is often wrong. In this case, those “common sense” rules that women are told to follow “just in case” cause enormous damage to our rights and freedoms. So I don’t consider “discussing such advice” to be letting the patriarchy win, but I do consider making the caviler assumption that these rules are reasonable and the impact on the lives of women is well worth the increased safety to be condescending, patriarchal, and inaccurate. Furthermore, let’s say that we determined that in actual truth, the average college campus is as dangerous for a woman as a crime-ridden urban wasteland is for the average man–that it is in fact REASONABLE for a woman going to Dartmouth to live like a man living in one of the most dangerous areas of Chicago. If so, is the appropriate response just to suck it up and accept that? If Dartmouth was for men like the most dangerous areas of Chicago is for men, then no one would send their kids there. So basically, my position is that either: 1. The efficacy of “rape rules” is highly exaggerated, and promoting them serves mostly to keep women afraid and limit their opportunities and freedoms or 1. The efficacy of “rape rules” is significant, and this reveals and incredible cultural double-standard: when male safety is threatened, we act, but when female safety is threatened, we expect women to limit their opportunities and freedoms to function around it. I tend to think 1 is more the case than 2. I’d be happy to discuss whether some “rape rules” fall more under 2. But what I am not comfortable with is girls being sent out into the world with a massive list of “don’t, or you’ll get raped” by well-meaning people who think that while rape isn’t your fault, it’s a simple, immutable, acceptable fact that women can’t expect to be both free and unraped, so they must limit their life. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/96 "2019-12-04T18:24:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For me, I don’t think it’s just a matter of victim blaming. Saying the mother of a rape victim was a horrible mom and should have had the kids removed, isn’t technically victim blaming but it’s changing the subject. If we are talking about getting a dick drawn on your forehead, ok whatever. But when we’re talking about rape, or especially some organized gang rape, how the fuck can you justify changing the subject? > > And the reason is often, they are bad actors. They don’t want to discuss the problems around sexual assault in our society. They don’t want you to either. I don’t think talking about the mother is changing the subject, any more than blaming the rapists is changing the subject. Because parents, whether mothers or fathers, are responsible for protecting their minor children. And allowing your eleven year old daughter to “date” a nineteen year old is incredibly stupid, and something no reasonable parent will do. So, the mother and/or the father and/or both are blameworthy, at least to some extent. This does not reduce the blame on the rapists one little bit - but the parents are still partially to blame. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/97 "2019-12-04T19:03:47Z")
Well, what one “should have to do” and what one “had better be sure to do” are two totally different things. We “shouldn’t” have to take any of the personal security measures that we currently have to take because people “shouldn’t” be criminals, pervs, etc. But to defiantly follow that philosophy in the face of harsh reality is stubborn and stupid. In the case where a young, naive, inexperienced girl ends up drunk and raped, you need to give her support in every way possible. An example of victim blaming is, “Well, if you didn’t do something really dumb, this wouldn’t have happened!” A way to attack the problem without victim blaming, for example, would be to offer free sessions on personal security and personal defense. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/98 "2019-12-04T19:11:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … > > 1. You should look both ways before crossing the street. > 2. You should have looked both ways before crossing the street. You didn’t, and now your leg is broken in three places. > 3. You should try to avoid getting black-out drunk at frat parties in college. > 4. He should probably not have gotten blackout drunk at that frat party last Friday night. Now he’s got a dick drawn on his forehead in permanent marker. > 5. She should probably not have gotten blackout drunk at that frat party last Friday night. Now she’s been sexually assaulted. > … 2, 4, 5 is victim blaming. We get that out here, where various homeless people wander around checking for unlocked car doors. Good : Always be sure to lock your cars at nite Bad: If you had locked your car doors, you wouldnt have been robbed. The difference between a general tip that applies to all, and a finger pointing at the victim. The difference between a preemptive safety tip and something after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/99 "2019-12-04T19:10:46Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Read about the [1989 Glen Rock rape trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Ridge_rape). The defense attorneys tried to blame the mentally handicapped 17 year old victim, saying it happened because “boys will be boys.” If it’s any consolation, the judge and jury weren’t fooled. They all knew that was the absolute best defense that could be offered and that the defendants were guilty as sin. But dear god, if I never hear _boys will be boys_ again in the context of sexual assault, it’ll be too soon. I _was_ a boy, long long ago, and I somehow made it to middle age without raping anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/100 "2019-12-04T19:15:43Z")
I’ve been looking at some legal stuff, and came across this concept called contributory negligence. The specific example on Wikipedia is identical to #1 and #2 in the OP. From what I can tell, this legal doctrine is in fact victim-blaming: it is raising the victim’s negligence as a defense to a tort claim. I agree with that article that the doctrine should not be available if the tortfeasor’s conduct rises above negligence and into intentional and malicious wrongdoing (for example, rape). This was touched upon early in the thread and I hope I am putting the correct name on it. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=6)