# Where's the line between advising someone to take steps to protect themselves and victim-blaming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322 "2019-12-03T19:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/121 "2019-12-04T22:06:20Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I feel like that the default belief in society is that that study would show dramatic rape reduction, except you’d have to do it the opposite way. You’d have to have the control group keep doing all the things women are currently doing, and you’d have to have the experimental group drop those behaviors are identified as “risky”. That’s what I thought I wrote, not sure if I ended up with an extra double negative or something > [@](#): > > The problem is that all these restrictive rules are presented as “common sense”. But common sense is often wrong. Sure, but it’s also often right. Does, for instance, wearing “revealing” or “sexy” outfits out in public increase one’s risk of rape? I certainly don’t know that it does, but I certainly don’t know that it doesn’t, and if I had to guess – which quite distastefully involves trying to put myself in the mindset of a (potential) rapist – I would certainly guess that it does. How much? Beats me. But if we did have that information, I think it would be more than reasonable to share it with women who can then make informed choices about how they want to react to it. For instance, suppose that we were able to prove that you could change your likelihood of being raped on any given evening walk from 1/100,000 to 3/100,000 by changing your outfit. Should you? Well, one woman might look at that and say “both of those percentages are truly tiny, a difference in 2/100,000 is not worth limiting my freedom for” and another might say “geez, that TRIPLES my risk, I do think I prefer to be safe”. Neither one of those reactions would be either unreasonable or wrong. (It would, of course, be unreasonable and assholish to “tut tut” a woman who had not chosen to alter her behavior and was then raped; but that would be unreasonable and assholish regardless of how good our hypothetical statistics were.) > [@](#): > > Furthermore, let’s say that we determined that in actual truth, the average college campus is as dangerous for a woman as a crime-ridden urban wasteland is for the average man–that it is in fact REASONABLE for a woman going to Dartmouth to live like a man living in one of the most dangerous areas of Chicago. If so, is the appropriate response just to suck it up and accept that? If Dartmouth was for men like the most dangerous areas of Chicago is for men, then no one would send their kids there. Not sure what you’re saying here… that you think we product young men MORE vigilantly than we protect young women, that we are MORE alarmed by violence against men than violence against women? Because that certainly seems to on the surface be contradicted by all sorts of other parts of society, ie, men have to register for the draft and women don’t, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/122 "2019-12-04T22:13:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I asked because for some reason I’m having a difficult time parsing your statement. Which part doesn’t have to be victim-blaming? Under what circumstances? > > Probably just me having that issue. Still, can you help clarify what you mean? Oh, sorry. The “don’t be so negligent, you dope” doesn’t have to be victim-blaming if you take pains to make sure it is not implied that the assault is her fault. Consider a girl who is assaulted because she decided to walk home from some event, against her mother’s explicit orders. It’s not victim blaming for the mother to show up at the hospital, verify her child will live, reassure her repeatedly that it’s not her fault, it’s not her fault, please listen to me next time, it’s not your fault, I love you, we’re going to get through this. Yes, it could be interpreted as an I told you so instead of sincere concern. It’s going to depend on the tone of voice and the context surrounding the conversation. That’s on the mother to gauge, as she would have crafted the context to begin with. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/123 "2019-12-04T22:35:23Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > For #2, it depends. Did you step out in front of a moving car that couldn’t possibly stop in time? > … You make a point. I would still word it neutrally, like “Be sure to never step out in front a a car that doesn’t have time to stop.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/124 "2019-12-04T22:39:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > For me, at least, the problem with victim-blaming as it relates to sexual assault is that women are expected to substantially modify their lives in ways that men are not in order to avoid becoming a victim. When you tell a woman that she’s not safe alone outside in the dark in a quiet neighborhood, that’s blaming female victims of sexual assault because women, in particular, aren’t safe at night alone. A man who gets mugged in the same situation won’t be asked why he was even there. General safety advice doesn’t have the same connotation to me. The problem is when it’s “as a woman, it’s not safe to do these things, and you’re at fault if you don’t adapt to that.” That’s true. Now, saying “that’s not a good neighborhood, even\*\* I\*\* wouldn’t go out there alone in the dark.” isnt so bad. The sex of the victim shud not be the issue. I was once talking to someone who had his account hacked. He said he had last accessed it in a internet cafe in Nigeria. :eek: I mentioned I would never access \*any \*secure account pretty much _any_where in that area. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/125 "2019-12-04T23:04:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve been following along in [this ATMB thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=885910&page=7), and I am a bit confused on where Dopers see the line between prudent advice and victim-blaming. > > A snippet from one post particularly stuck out to me: > > So, please help my unwoke self understand where you folks draw the line between prudent advice and victim-blaming. I’ll give some possible examples, and you can maybe tell me which ones you think cross the line into victim-blaming: > > 1. You should look both ways before crossing the street. > 2. You should have looked both ways before crossing the street. You didn’t, and now your leg is broken in three places. > 3. You should try to avoid getting black-out drunk at frat parties in college. > 4. He should probably not have gotten blackout drunk at that frat party last Friday night. Now he’s got a dick drawn on his forehead in permanent marker. > 5. She should probably not have gotten blackout drunk at that frat party last Friday night. Now she’s been sexually assaulted. > > I suspect everyone agrees that #5 is victim-blaming, and perhaps #4 and #2. What about #3 and #1? Are those statements offensive? Is the critical difference in giving advice prior to a negative consequence vs. assigning blame after the fact? I guess I’m getting tripped up on “I do not believe that women generally … should even be responsible for [protecting themselves]”. I mean, I can agree that in an ideal world it shouldn’t be necessary, but in our real world, some choices leave one more at risk than others (crossing the street without looking vs looking both ways). Is that an outrageous observation to make in 2019? The consequences for a guy getting drunk looks like getting drawn on. For a woman it’s a ghastly sexual assault that has life long effects. Number One and Number Two are just common sense. Cars are very big and very fast and cannot stop on a dime. Now, why would a woman at a party have to treat men at that party as if there is a very good chance that they will rape her, as if rape is an act of physics, just like trying to slow a 4,000-lb. vehicle down in, say, a six-foot space? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/126 "2019-12-04T23:08:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > For instance, suppose that we were able to prove that you could change your likelihood of being raped on any given evening walk from 1/100,000 to 3/100,000 by changing your outfit. Should you? Well, one woman might look at that and say “both of those percentages are truly tiny, a difference in 2/100,000 is not worth limiting my freedom for” and another might say “geez, that TRIPLES my risk, I do think I prefer to be safe”. Neither one of those reactions would be either unreasonable or wrong. You are opinionating with that last sentence. It is always reasonable to question whether someone else’s risk mitigation strategies are reasonable. Feelings aren’t wrong, but thought processes can be. Like, I think we all understand that a person who is outdoors has a significantly higher risk of being struck by lightning than a person who stays indoors all the time. Let’s say the person who is outdoors for about 30 minutes a day has a 20% higher likelihood of being struck by lightning than a person who never goes outside. Would it be reasonable for someone who hears this statistic to become a shut-in? No, of course not. Because the benefit of increased safety is outweighed by the enormous downside of being imprisoned all day long. A woman who is not already inclined to dress modestly probably enjoys what she looks like and how she feels in her attire. She may also enjoy the positive attention she gets when she wears those clothes. So if someone told her that her risk of rape would decrease somewhat if she dressed more like a nun, to be rational and thus reasonable, she will need to weigh the benefit of changing her clothing choices against the costs. One cost could be that she gets overheated faster and thus stops exercising as frequently as she should. Another cost could be that she is no longer attractive to the hot guy next door or any other guys along her walking route. Cuz dressing like a nun means she would look like a freakin’ nun–and not a sexy Sister Night nun either. Let’s say women who are morbidly obese have a 50% less likelihood of being raped than women who are not. Would it be reasonable for a woman to gain 100 lb to keep herself safe from rape? Of course not. Because we know that in her attempt to avoid rape, she has now increased her odds of her being victimized by other life shittiness. And she still could very well be raped! At any rate, risk factors rarely work in isolation. A woman who dresses immodestly can mitigate her risk of nighttime assaults by walking in a well-lit area with heavy foot and car traffic. She can walk with a buddy. She can learn some self-defense moves. I would give a woman serious side-eye if she is willing to get all sweaty in a fugly nun habit because she thinks wearing one will make it safer for her to walk with the music in her earbuds turned all the way up. Nothing about that is reasonable. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/127 "2019-12-04T23:23:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I was once talking to someone who had his account hacked. He said he had last accessed it in a internet cafe in Nigeria. :eek: I mentioned I would never access \*any \*secure account pretty much _any_where in that area. IT security is, by its essential nature, victim-blaming. “Don’t click on an attachment / use strong passwords / don’t fall for phishing” - all of these things put the burden on the victim, and any decent IT professional will tell you what you did wrong when you give them a virus-laden machine to fix. This is because the criminals themselves are very hard to catch. Requiring these sorts of precautions is an “unfair” burden on anyone honest, and points to some kind of breakdown of law & order - in the example of IT, it’s the admission that enforcement can never solve the problem. Similarly, if you’re looking at “watch out for pickpockets in a crowd” or “don’t go to a dodgy neighborhood” it’s a signal that law enforcement is out-tasked or doesn’t have the political will to protect you in those areas. I think - in the **very specific** instance of sexual assault - what we’re seeing is a change in this mentality over time. The previous mentality: “men are animals, we should just accept that, we can’t really enforce it, so we put the pressure on potential victims.” The current mentality: “we sure as hell CAN do much much more at having the political will to punish the criminals, and change expectations for male behavior, so we can make those sorts of onerous expectations a thing of the past”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/128 "2019-12-04T23:41:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Oh, sorry. The “don’t be so negligent, you dope” doesn’t have to be victim-blaming if you take pains to make sure it is not implied that the assault is her fault. > > Consider a girl who is assaulted because she decided to walk home from some event, against her mother’s explicit orders. It’s not victim blaming for the mother to show up at the hospital, verify her child will live, reassure her repeatedly that it’s not her fault, it’s not her fault, please listen to me next time, it’s not your fault, I love you, we’re going to get through this. > > Yes, it could be interpreted as an I told you so instead of sincere concern. It’s going to depend on the tone of voice and the context surrounding the conversation. That’s on the mother to gauge, as she would have crafted the context to begin with. > > ~Max Agreed. Context matters. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/129 "2019-12-04T23:48:43Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > I think - in the **very specific** instance of sexual assault - what we’re seeing is a change in this mentality over time. The previous mentality: “men are animals, we should just accept that, we can’t really enforce it, so we put the pressure on potential victims.” The current mentality: “we sure as hell CAN do much much more at having the political will to punish the criminals, and change expectations for male behavior, so we can make those sorts of onerous expectations a thing of the past”. There have been several cases where bartenders or bar patrons observed men drugging womens’ drinks-----and doing so quite brazenly, in public----and managed to get the guy busted. I remember one case where three women saw this happen, and one told the victim in the bathroom. The guy, ISTR, was not just a date, but a long time friend, who had driven her to the bar. And then, of course, there is convicted rapist Brock Turner, who was stopped by two male students in the act of attacking the victim. The long-delayed testing of rape kits across the country has revealed there are far more serial rapists than was previously thought. The “men are animals” trope was used to tell women that mens’ behavior could not be changed or controlled and that women had to adapt to it. It was used to reduce responsibility on the part of men. It could be argued it was pejorative, but was it really, unless it was directed at minority men? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/130 "2019-12-05T00:31:15Z")
I think the big unspoken issue is this: You need to recognize that threats can constrain one’s own freedom, (and hence take precautions to enhance safety) while _simultaneously pushing to expand the envelope of safety and rights._ ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/131 "2019-12-05T00:37:05Z")
It seems to me: “Don’t let your credit card out of your sight” is acceptable advice to prevent credit card fraud “Don’t let your drink out of your sight” is victim blaming in sexual assault “Don’t walk down a dark alley” is acceptable if I am mugged “Don’t walk through the empty park at night” is victim blaming in sexual assault If I stumble drunkenly through a carpark in a closed mall and get run over, don’t walk around drunk is good advice If I get drunk and am unaware of my surroundings and get sexually assaulted, don’t get drunk in alone in unfamiliar places is victim blaming Tomorrow I am buying a used car, before handing over money I will be checking if there are any liens on the car. I would fully expect to be blamed if I don’t do this and it turns out that the car does have money owing and I lose the car to a debt collection agency. Yet it would be victim blaming to suggest that one of the safety measures against sexual assault is to not go to an alcohol fueled frat party alone. Protecting yourself against any sort of crime or unacceptable behaviour is always going to be a continum of what works, what is reasonable, what is practicable and what is an unfair burden to me as the victim. To me - the Brock Turner case is highly illustrative. He deserved a lot more punishment than he got. At the same time - I tell my 15 year old daughter, the fact of the matter is that there are people out there like him. When you are out partying, think through your actions, the situation you are putting yourself in and if YOU are comfortable with the risk. Or to put it another way - even though I don’t realistically expect to win anything, I still buy a lottery ticket. If you want to put yourself into a situation whereby if you meet the 1 in however many (1,000? 10,000?) men who are evil enough to take advantage - is that something you want to be doing or taking precautions against? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/132 "2019-12-05T00:41:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think talking about the mother is changing the subject, any more than blaming the rapists is changing the subject. Because parents, whether mothers or fathers, are responsible for protecting their minor children. And allowing your eleven year old daughter to “date” a nineteen year old is incredibly stupid, and something no reasonable parent will do. So, the mother and/or the father and/or both are blameworthy, at least to some extent. This does not reduce the blame on the rapists one little bit - but the parents are still partially to blame. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, you’re wrong. Sexual assault rates aren’t going to be changed by Social Services getting more power to take away kids from bad parents. If a girl is gang raped and you want us all to talk about how the mother is culpable then something is wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/133 "2019-12-05T01:25:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But why does the differing consequences matter here? > > A person supporting a large family has more to lose by, say, drinking and driving than a person only supporting himself. I have to drive for my job. the person sitting next to me doesn’t Which of us is going to be more careful to ensure we don’t drink and drive? I once saw research about criminal sentencing - the deterrent effect of any sentence is a function of both the length of the sentence and the likelihood of getting caught. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to extrapolate this to any actions being taken to prevent action x are a combination of the likelihood of action x happening and the impact that has? I wouldn’t be worried about my teen daughter wandering alone around our suburban neighbourhood at 11pm. I would be worried about her wandering alone around the inner city entertainment district drunk on a Saturday night. Is this victim blaming on my part? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/134 "2019-12-05T01:54:40Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > It seems to me: > “Don’t let your credit card out of your sight” is acceptable advice to prevent credit card fraud > “Don’t let your drink out of your sight” is victim blaming in sexual assault > > “Don’t walk down a dark alley” is acceptable if I am mugged > “Don’t walk through the empty park at night” is victim blaming in sexual assault > > If I stumble drunkenly through a carpark in a closed mall and get run over, don’t walk around drunk is good advice > If I get drunk and am unaware of my surroundings and get sexually assaulted, don’t get drunk in alone in unfamiliar places is victim blaming > > Tomorrow I am buying a used car, before handing over money I will be checking if there are any liens on the car. I would fully expect to be blamed if I don’t do this and it turns out that the car does have money owing and I lose the car to a debt collection agency. Yet it would be victim blaming to suggest that one of the safety measures against sexual assault is to not go to an alcohol fueled frat party alone. > > Protecting yourself against any sort of crime or unacceptable behaviour is always going to be a continum of what works, what is reasonable, what is practicable and what is an unfair burden to me as the victim. > > To me - the Brock Turner case is highly illustrative. He deserved a lot more punishment than he got. At the same time - I tell my 15 year old daughter, the fact of the matter is that there are people out there like him. When you are out partying, think through your actions, the situation you are putting yourself in and if YOU are comfortable with the risk. > > Or to put it another way - even though I don’t realistically expect to win anything, I still buy a lottery ticket. If you want to put yourself into a situation whereby if you meet the 1 in however many (1,000? 10,000?) men who are evil enough to take advantage - is that something you want to be doing or taking precautions against? Why is it reasonable to demand that women live in fear for a 1in-1,000 or-10,000 times? That’s _three_ and _ **TWENTY SEVEN YEARS.** _ How about we stop treating women as the problem and start going after these guys? The problem is, that all this advice for women requires 100% vigilance, 100% of the time, and requires a list that grows ever longer. Rapists don’t wear signs. Most rapists are not going to hang out around dark alleys. When I got mugged, it was broad daylight, in front of a dozen witnesses, and several of the witnesses said, “We thought it was her boyfriend.” Now, if we were handing out lists to _everybody_ in spotting would-be rapists, that might change things. \*Do you know a really sexist guy? Does he express hatred, disdain, or contempt of women? \* What would that look like? Like, look at abortion. Why are women being punished when a single guy can impregnate or rape 100 women in the space of the single pregnancy each woman could have in a year. That’s the same way we’re approaching _this._ Let’s make 100 women live in fear for a thousand days for the sake of one guy. I mean, at the very least, that’s damned _brave_ of women to refuse to live in fear. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/135 "2019-12-05T02:10:25Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Why is it reasonable to demand that women live in fear for a 1in-1,000 or-10,000 times? That’s _three_ and _ **TWENTY SEVEN YEARS.** _ How about we stop treating women as the problem and start going after these guys? Nobody I know and nobody I have talked to says it either fair or reasonable. It’s no more fair or reasonable than my worry of getting mugged, or having my wallet stolen from the car. And everybody I know does go after rapists, and teaches their sons that no means no > [@margin](#): > > Now, if we were handing out lists to _everybody_ in spotting would-be rapists, that might change things. \*Do you know a really sexist guy? Does he express hatred, disdain, or contempt of women? \* Except that, at least in my circle we DO do that - we talk about the misogynist, guys that talk in a creepy way are told that it’s not cool, we do warn our friends about the guy we don’t trust ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/136 "2019-12-05T02:24:37Z")
Why is it reasonable to fear for a daughter more if she is in the city or an alley as supposed to a suburb? Bill Cosby wasn’t raping people in alleys Brett Kavanaugh was attempting rape at a nice house in a nice neighborhood. Donald Trump raped someone in a fancy department store. Brock Turner digitally raped someone on an elite college campus. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/137 "2019-12-05T02:45:49Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I have to drive for my job. > the person sitting next to me doesn’t > > Which of us is going to be more careful to ensure we don’t drink and drive? You seem really confused by my analogy. Let’s say you have two kids–a boy and a girl. Do you tell both of them to avoid getting drunk and wandering around late at night in dangerous neighborhoods? Or would you give only the girl this advice and let the boy go around thinking he’s 100% safe no matter what he does? Even though statistically speaking, he’s more likely to be a victim of violent crime than your daughter because of his maleness? Now to go back to the drunk driving analogy, do you only preach about the dangers of drunk driving to men who support large families and thus have a lot to lose by being so reckless? Or do you tell everyone about the dangers of drunk driving because drunk driving is unsafe no matter who does it? > [@](#): > > I once saw research about criminal sentencing - the deterrent effect of any sentence is a function of both the length of the sentence and the likelihood of getting caught. Most murder victims are male. Most victims of non-rape violence are men. So if we want to be slaves to statistics, it makes far more sense for us to give special lecturing to men about how dangerous the world is for them, rather than focusing so much on women. It only makes sense to give special lecturing to women about rape if we believe that rape is objectively worse than being killed. I know some people honestly think rape is just that horrible, but this is ridiculous. From [this](https://www.victimsweek.gc.ca/res/r512.html) cite: > [@](#): > > n 2008, overall rates of police-reported violent victimization were comparable between men and women, but the nature of their victimization differed. > > In that year, men were more likely than women to be victims of the most serious forms of physical assault (levels 2 and 3) and have a weapon used against them. > > Men were almost twice as likely to be the victims of assault level 2 than women (215 versus 114 per 100,000); > > Though aggravated assault (level 3) occurs much less frequently than the less serious forms of assault, the rate of aggravated assault for men is over three times greater than that of women (18 versus 5 per 100,000) > > Young men under the age of 18 are 1.5 times more likely to be physically assaulted than young girls. > > Male victims were most often physically assaulted by a stranger or by someone else outside of the family. In 2008, men were the victims of 80% of all reported attacks by strangers. > > Men were more likely to be robbed than women. They were victims in 65% of robberies in 2008. > > Male teens aged 15 to 17 reported the highest robbery rates among all child and youth age groups and nearly 1.5 times higher than the rate for men aged 18 to 24. > > Men were more likely than women to be a homicide victim, accounting for almost three quarters (74%) of homicide victims during a 5-year period between the years 2004 to 2008. If you think giving the raw facts to people will deter them from high risk behaviors, then maybe you should try it out on guys first. Wave the above statistics in young men’s faces and follow it up with a long sermon on how unsafe it is to get drunk at bars where fights might break out and how unsafe it is for them to walk down the street late at night in a three-piece business suit and how unsafe it is for them to [drive around in late-model automobiles](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=147002). > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t it be reasonable to extrapolate this to any actions being taken to prevent action x are a combination of the likelihood of action x happening and the impact that has? If people actually presented facts and figures when advising others, then you’d have a point. But that’s not what happens. What usually happens is people have notions in their head (e.g., “Women are more likely to be victims than men” and “Rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman” and “Dangerous neighborhoods are easy to spot” and “Rape is so prevalent that it is important a woman think about it all the time, no matter her individual circumstances.,” ) that simply aren’t reflective of reality. And because these notions are wrong, the advice they inspire is also wrong. Like, if a person believes that rape really is the worst thing that can happen to a woman, then yeah, it makes sense to give her special warnings about traveling alone at night. But if you believe (as I do) that murder is worse, then it makes sense to save your special warnings for guys. That is, if for some weird reason you can’t manage to just tell both boys and girls to be careful when they travel alone at night. I know people have a problem with relative risk, but this isn’t rocket science. [Smoking appears to be more dangerous for women than for men](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=147002). Does that mean it is safe for men? No! It’s hella dangerous for men too. NO ONE SHOULD BE SMOKING CIGARRETES. That’s the fucking message. By targeting women with an anti-smoking message, suddenly you’re sending a message that lung cancer is a “woman’s issue”. Just like targeting women with special safety advice is sending a message that violence is a women’s issue. When it’s everything but that. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t be worried about my teen daughter wandering alone around our suburban neighbourhood at 11pm. I would be worried about her wandering alone around the inner city entertainment district drunk on a Saturday night. Is this victim blaming on my part? How can worrying be victim blaming? What a bizarre question. Personally, while I am very fortunate to have never been the victim of a violent crime, I have been flashed before. A completely naked guy stepped out from an alley and waved his dick at me menacingly. This happened in a quiet, tree-lined ritzy neighborhood with million dollar houses. The flasher looked like he could have been a college professor or a lawyer, if he had been clothed. Nothing like this has ever happened to me in the “bad” neighborhoods I walk through on my way to and from work. Would you think it irrational of me to worry more about my safety in that ritzy neighborhood? Because I’ll tell you, that’s how feel. In that ritzy neighborhood, no one sits out on their front porch. There are no corner stores that I could take refuge in. I feel like if some shit went down, I could scream and everyone would be too chicken-shit to leave their airtight palaces to help me. But I don’t feel like that when I travel through rougher neighborhoods. There’s always people sitting out on porches and stoops or waiting at bus stops. People speak to you, say hello and let you know they’re keeping an eye out. There might be winos hanging out in alleys, but they are old dudes who are too decrepit to hurt anyone. At least they keep their clothes on. So while I try to have situational awareness no matter where I go, I don’t hinge my alertness level on the income level of the neighborhood. I hinge it on how many eyeballs are in my general vicinity. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/138 "2019-12-05T02:45:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it reasonable to fear for a daughter more if she is in the city or an alley as supposed to a suburb? > > Bill Cosby wasn’t raping people in alleys > > Brett Kavanaugh was attempting rape at a nice house in a nice neighborhood. > > Donald Trump raped someone in a fancy department store. > > Brock Turner digitally raped someone on an elite college campus. There’s a lot of material - per this cite: [Effects of Alcohol on the Body: Short & Long-Term Effects](https://www.alcohol.org/effects/sexual-assault-college-campus/) At least 50 percent of student sexual assaults involve alcohol. Approximately 90 percent of rapes perpetrated by an acquaintance of the victim involve alcohol. About 43 percent of sexual assault events involve alcohol use by the victim; 69 percent involve alcohol use by the perpetrator. In one-third of sexual assaults, the aggressor is intoxicated. I dunno about you - but I see a lot more drunk people in the inner city entertainment district (i.e people that are partying) than I do wandering round my suburban neighbourhood. Not to say one of the other is immune - but as per the point I was trying to make (perhaps unsuccessfully) is that ALL behaviours carry a risk. We each have to decide for ourselves - what level of (perceived) risk we are comfortable risk - what actions are “reasonable” to ameliorate that risk ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/139 "2019-12-05T02:48:54Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Does, for instance, wearing “revealing” or “sexy” outfits out in public increase one’s risk of rape? I certainly don’t know that it does, but I certainly don’t know that it doesn’t, and if I had to guess – which quite distastefully involves trying to put myself in the mindset of a (potential) rapist – I would certainly guess that it does. How much? Beats me. But if we did have that information, I think it would be more than reasonable to share it with women who can then make informed choices about how they want to react to it. I disagree with the premise that wearing revealing or sexy outfits increases your chance of rape. I don’t think you did a good job of putting yourself in the mindset of a rapist, which I hope you take as a compliment. I’m pushing back against the idea that men commit rape because a woman dresses or behaves in a provocative way, that somehow she causes a lapse of self-control in a guy that had never considered forcing himself on a woman before. I’m saying that I think most rapists had rape as their intention before they went on the date or to the party or bar, and that how the woman is dressed or behaves is relevant only in how it might make her vulnerable or an easier target. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322/140 "2019-12-05T02:49:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think talking about the mother is changing the subject, any more than blaming the rapists is changing the subject. Because parents, whether mothers or fathers, are responsible for protecting their minor children. And allowing your eleven year old daughter to “date” a nineteen year old is incredibly stupid, and something no reasonable parent will do. So, the mother and/or the father and/or both are blameworthy, at least to some extent. This does not reduce the blame on the rapists one little bit - but the parents are still partially to blame. Try to be honest with yourself with this hypothetical: Let’s say some single dad was a drunk and he regularly let his creepy sister babysit. One day, turns out she’s in a blood cult and all of her buddies take turns slashing the kid’s arms and legs. How much time would you want to spend on the father’s drunkenness? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-line-between-advising-someone-to-take-steps-to-protect-themselves-and-victim-blaming/844322.md?page=8)