# Where's the outrage from fiscal conservatives over Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180 "2009-07-25T01:11:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/21 "2009-07-25T02:22:27Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > But how come when Bush spent a ton of unfunded money on various things there was no outcry from Republicans like we’re seeing now over healthcare? Because when you spend too much money on something you believe is a good cause, it is not nearly as unpleasant as spending too much money on something you think is a really stupid idea. This is not rocket science…TRM ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/22 "2009-07-25T02:26:27Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Because when you spend too much money on something you believe is a good cause, it is not nearly as unpleasant as spending too much money on something you think is a really stupid idea. This is not rocket science…TRM The 2003 Medicare bill is costed by the CBO to cost well over a trillion dollars over ten years and is completely unfunded. The Obama healthcare bill is costed to about half that but Obama is making sure revenues will be raised so it won’t add to the deficits. Both programs are to fund socialist healthcare. The GOP all voted for and praised the first, more expensive, unfunded socialist healthcare bill but are opposing the cheaper, funded, socialist healthcare bill. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/23 "2009-07-25T02:32:22Z")
> [@](#): > > For one thing, protecting the homeland against threats foreign and domestic IS an activity authorized by the constitution. Providing universal health care is decidedly NOT authorized, and could easily be construed as prohibited by the ninth and tenth amendments How did you miss it? “Promote the general welfare” is there right next to “provide for the common defence”. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/24 "2009-07-25T02:52:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How did you miss it? “Promote the general welfare” is there right next to “provide for the common defence”. Does that sec. 8 language grant a power to Congress? Or does it explain the below clauses that grants powers to Congress? I’m asking because I don’t know and the wiki article is really long. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/25 "2009-07-25T03:04:08Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If you invent a threat with bs intelligence and then go to war illegally on that basis, is that authorised by the constitution? No, but Osama Bin Laden apparently did. Was he created? Is he real? If you can (which I doubt) put the Iraq war aside, what is the purpose of the war in Afghanistan? To bomb more brown people without regret? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/26 "2009-07-25T03:07:18Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Because when you spend too much money on something you believe is a good cause, it is not nearly as unpleasant as spending too much money on something you think is a really stupid idea. This is not rocket science…TRM No, but it’s hypocritical. “The government shouldn’t be able to spend money on things like this … (except when I like the idea)” is a shitty position to argue from. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/27 "2009-07-25T03:21:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > No, but Osama Bin Laden apparently did. Was he created? Is he real? > > If you can (which I doubt) put the Iraq war aside, what is the purpose of the war in Afghanistan? To bomb more brown people without regret? Yes, Osama is real. Exactly what does he have to do with Iraq? I’m not entirely sure of the real purpose for the war in Afghanistan. Obama claimed it was just going to be a “taking out the bad guys” operation, lots of drones and special forces, when he took office. But after a couple of months they changed to a counterinsurgency strategy. The current claim is to build up the institutions of Afghanistan for twenty or thirty years until they’re up to the level of Pakistan, which is of course the country where Osama now lives. The ultimate purpose of all this is almost certainly strategic rather than anything to do with terrorism. It’s going to create terrorism, not end it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/28 "2009-07-25T04:17:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Oh, what a surprise, the usual suspects are out in force, making up bullshit to slander fiscal conservatives with. They’ve pretty well demonstrated what they are like over the years. Greedy, incompetent and as a rule hypocrites who are only “fiscally conservative” until they get into power and can indulge themselves. > [@Grumman](#): > > If you want the opinion of an actual fiscal conservative on the matter, it’s that there are more effective ways to argue against the Iraq War than using the fiscal conservative argument. It’s a lot easier to convince people that invading foreign countries and killing people is bad than it is to convince them that government control is bad. In this country? Not a chance. Americans as a whole _ **like** _ killing foreigners. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > No, but Osama Bin Laden apparently did. Was he created? Is he real? Yes, but he was never anything but a sideshow, a pretext. There was no serious attempt to catch or kill him once Bush took power. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > If you can (which I doubt) put the Iraq war aside, what is the purpose of the war in Afghanistan? To bomb more brown people without regret? To a degree; it usually involves that with America. It was started by Bush mainly as something that had to be gotten out of the way so he could attack Iraq; it was therefore accomplished in a sloppy, incomplete fashion that resulted in the mess we see and let Osama Bin Laden get away. As for why Obama hasn’t stopped it; I expect he has the typical Democratic paranoia over being called soft. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/29 "2009-07-25T12:57:53Z")
> [@Dick Dastardly](#): > > The Obama healthcare bill is costed to about half that but Obama is making sure revenues will be raised so it won’t add to the deficits. Cite, please, and for these specific claims. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/30 "2009-07-25T13:12:23Z")
Well, as to the OP, yes, I consider myself someone that likes the government to be fiscally conservative, and yes, I am outraged at the expenditures in Iraq. I’m also outraged that equal blame is not levied at Democrats (whom are presumably the ideological opposite of fiscal conservatives by common definition, right?), whom not only voted by and large for the mess we are in over there now, but continue it. I am very disappointed in our government in this regard. The Iraq war has cost how much money? And in light of the state of the economy, how much would that money have helped keep the government ahead of the game? Shit, would the economy even be THIS bad if the Iraq war had never happened? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/31 "2009-07-25T15:25:28Z")
Equal blame? Who led? Who lied? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/32 "2009-07-25T15:34:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Equal blame? Who led? Who lied? They went along with the charade and now they are running the show, and nothing seems to have changed one iota. Anyway, it doesn’t matter much, the die has been cast. But to the OP, yeah, it’s been a HUGE waste of lives and money. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/33 "2009-07-25T15:43:49Z")
I’m a fiscal conservative who never supported the Iraq war. Where’s the outrage? Here: OUTRAGE!!! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/34 "2009-07-25T15:46:09Z")
Well, gee, for one thing, the war had not happened yet, at that point. Now, it has happened. Pretty big “iota”, by my estimation. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/35 "2009-07-25T15:47:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, gee, for one thing, the war had not happened yet, at that point. Now, it has happened. Pretty big “iota”, by my estimation. YMMV. No it isn’t. It’s “happening”. Right now. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/36 "2009-07-25T15:48:04Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If we’d built all the tanks, planes etc. and just tipped them into the sea they would have had the same economic effect i.e. dragging us out of economic depression. An excellent point. WWII dragged us out of the Depression because we had sky-high taxes on the rich and funnelled all that money to the poor and middle class through massive military spending. Military spending however, is ultimately wealth-destroying. Unused weapons sit idle, adding nothing to future prosperity. Used weapons have a tendency to be destroyed. A certain amount of military spending is a necessity for our safety, but any beyond that necessity is just waste. As **Dick Dastardly** says, we might as well just be building the tanks and then dumping them in the ocean. It’s much better to funnel money from the rich to the poor and middle class by spending on things that lead to increased prosperity down the road: scientific research, highways, schools, etc. This type of spending provides a double benefit. It put money into the hands of people who will actually spend it, stimulating the economy, and it increases our capacity for greater wealth production in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/37 "2009-07-26T00:35:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cite, please, and for these specific claims. > Regards, > Shodan [http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=324](http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=324) This says one trillion over ten years, but I read something else on either their site or somewhere similar that said that number didn’t take the savings created by treating sick people early under universal coverage versus letting their conditions deteriorate till they’re sick enough to get emergency room treatment under the current system, which works out much more expensive. And Obama is planning to fund this by a surtax on people earning $350K p.a., something that’s been in almost every article about this for a couple of weeks now. Or a million a year, depending on the articles. If I bump into the second article that had the half trillion in preventative care saving in again I’ll post it. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/38 "2009-07-26T00:59:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What’s interesting is that the long boom that followed WWII was enabled by the economic program undertaken during WWII: Great increases in taxes on corporations & upper incomes, plus wage raises for the working class. In the end, it was redistribution that built the large consumer middle class, & fed the gargantuan postwar economy. Paul Krugman explains this convincingly in _The Conscience of a Liberal._ > > So the war saved the economy because the sacrifices necessary to win the war enabled the most redistributive parts of the New Deal. This is a joke, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/39 "2009-07-26T01:05:22Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > This is a joke, right? Why would it be? It make perfect sense; tax the largely parasitic wealthy, funnel the money to the people who actually make the economy go, and the depression is overcome. Get the money moving again instead of sitting in a rich guy’s bank account somewhere accruing interest. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180/40 "2009-07-26T01:09:43Z")
There are quite a number of fiscal conservatives who didn’t support the Iraq war. There are some like me who expressed that by voting against Bush quite happily. If I am going to waste money I would rather do it on healthcare or even bailouts than killing. The non-religiously motivated fiscal conservative lives in a political wasteland betwixt two factions that want to spend money on their own assinine pursuits. You don’t notice because people like me don’t have strong representation in either party. I will never understand people like Der Trihs who think it is evil to want to slow the movement of massive amounts of money from one group’s pet projects to the other’s every four years. The collateral waste that comes with all of that is a crying shame, not to mention the slow leakage of freedom. The Iraq war destroys freedom in a quite obvious way, by bombs and guns. The bailout of GM does it in smaller ways by artificially promoting ineffeciency. Somewhere there is an entrepenuer who would have snapped up the state of the art GM facilities for a song and used those cheap assets to start a new, more productive domestic auto industry. Neither makes fiscal conservatives happy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-outrage-from-fiscal-conservatives-over-iraq/504180.md?page=3)