# Where's the secret WoMD evidence?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 12, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217 "2003-04-12T06:32:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/1 "2003-04-12T06:32:51Z")
One objection to The War has been, “How do we know Iraq has WoMD? Where is the evidence?”
A defense has been raised that (to oversimplify), “the US government has super-secret info that they can’t divulge without placing sources in danger.”
OK, maybe that’s true, we can’t screw our sources or get people killed. Could be.
So, now we’ve won (mostly). There seems to be little reason to protect sources that aren’t now under the Iron Thumb of Saddam.
So: where’s that super-secret proof?
Is there any reasonable purpose in keeping it secret?
Is it reasonable to expect the Bush admin to finally divulge the real proof, now that the danger is passed?
Is it reasonable to assume that, barring some damning disclosures, it was all a crock, and the Bush admin had no more WoMD proof than CNN did?
I’m willing to be convinced there was sooper-secret evidence. But I darned well want to finally know what it was and how it justified the US actions.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/2 "2003-04-12T06:50:42Z")
A wrinkle to the issue: [Secret Inspectors Scour Iraq](http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6273511%255E25778,00.html)
Which naturally begs the question, why do they have to be secret from the UN at all? What’s the United States afraid of, other than an honest accounting? Or perhaps George W. Bush is so desperate to find some proof of WMDs in Iraq that this secret inspection team is given very loose standards as to what constitutes “evidence”?
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/3 "2003-04-12T06:56:54Z")
Where have you been? It’s not about WMD, it’s about liberating the Iraqi people from domination by Saddam. It has never been about WMD, where did you get that idea?
[sub]Oceania has never been at war with Eastasia
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH[/sub]
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### Author:  [@sotally\_tober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sotally_tober)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/4 "2003-04-12T07:06:52Z")
A couple more questions pop into mind.
Where is the _major_ environmental disaster? Everybody’s been predicting that the first thing Hussein does would be bomb the oil fields. At least that was sold to Americans (and the world) as Hussein’s personality (hence, he must be taken down blah blah).
Where are the human shields that he would take? 2 months back, any mention of the war would result in the imagery of Hussein and 10 human shields draped around him. Has there been any major event in which masses of Iraqis were taken as hostages by Iraqi soldiers?
[oh, and as a sidenote, where are the we-are-the-oh-so-noble-we-are-driving-into-Baghdad-on-a-bus-to-act-as-human-shields people?]
Besides 2(?) suicide bombings, Hussein has done everything (seemingly) within conventional warfare stipulations. America, on the other hand, has authorised chem warfare. heh. Anyway, back to the OP.
Where are the WMDs you ask? Well, one obvious answer. Occam would definately have been pleased by this. Could it be that…_gasP_ the horror! _gasP_…Hussein had no WMDs in the first place? Maybe it was what the US govt wanted us to believe.
1. One argues that IF Saddam Hussein had WMDs or even chemical weapons, he would definately have used them, going by the American judge of his character.
2. Until now, the Americans have not discovered anything even though they now are in control of the majority of Iraq. That is indeed telling. They have discovered many sites of suspected factories where chemical weapons might have been manufactured, but when they exlaim with an all-so-triumphant cry: “haH! we have go you!”, and all the journalists flock to the scene, it turns out that …oops…that was a red herring. Could it be that the Americans are desperate to produce evidence to back up their claims?
3. If the Americans are indeed desperate, would they manufacture evidence? OK. Before the pro-war camp jumps right in and say: “well, you have closed your mind to the argument already, by saying that any weapons found are plants”. Well, i am open to the possiblity of the Americans finding real WMDs (Hussein’s secret stash), if you’ll agree that the probibility of US plants are very real too.
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### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/5 "2003-04-12T07:07:36Z")
FWIW, I wasn’t trying to start a “hate George” thread. I have my own feelings on the topic, but we have plenty of threads of that sort.
I’m more interested in the assertions by some (I can find many cites on this board, but I’m sure everyone has heard this sort of discussion) that the Bush admin has/had evidence of WoMD in Iraq that weren’t being divulged publicly for security reasons.
Isn’t it now time (or really close to the time) for the US to come clean on this evidence? Pay-up or shut-up, so to speak?
If this isn’t the time, is there a more appropriate time? Or do we trust the US to keep this evidence (assuming it exists) secret indefinitely?
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### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/6 "2003-04-12T07:12:49Z")
**sotally tober** , you seem to be accusing everyone on both sides of being dishonest on _all_ issues, which seems excessive, IMHO.
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### Author:  [@sotally\_tober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sotally_tober)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/7 "2003-04-12T07:37:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by squeegee \*
> \*\ ***sotally tober** , you seem to be accusing everyone on both sides of being dishonest on _all_ issues, which seems excessive, IMHO. \*\*
Well, that’s politics. Heh.
Sorry if i seem to be hijacking the thread a lil’.
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by squeegee_
>
> \*\*Is there any reasonable purpose in keeping it secret? Is it reasonable to expect the Bush admin to finally divulge the real proof, now that the danger is passed? Is it reasonable to assume that, barring some damning disclosures, it was all a crock, and the Bush admin had no more WoMD proof than CNN did?
> \*\*
Ok i’ll argue for the other side. 27 Days ain’t much to a detailed write-up about WMD mass-producing factories. There could be some sensitive information the US wants to censor before making it public a la when they did it to the security council (other than the big 5), e.g. they definately wouln’t want to make public material the methods of refining anthrax etc.
Also, time would be needed to ‘decode’ all the secret manuscripts. My guess is that if there were secret labs, care would be taken to protect them. Time is needed to decrypt all these data.
Reasonable purpose in keeping it secret? No. Political? Yes.
The US admin might be trying to find the ‘right time’ to release the information; in politics, timing counts for everything. The White House might want to release it later, for a much needed boost when things are not going well for them, much like a rainy day check. Current progress in the war is commendable, and public opinion is right behind Bush. If and/or when that reverses, Bush could pluck this furry bunny outta his hat and qualm AND calm the masses.
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### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/8 "2003-04-12T21:05:22Z")
[Saddam’s science aide surrenders, insists there is no WoMD in Iraq, and nothing will be found because there’s nothing to find.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20030412/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_science_adviser)
OK, so maybe this guy has pretty strong reasons to cover his ass if any war crimes trials happen, but it’ll be interesting to see if he’s correct.
It’d also be interesting to see some of the secret evidence supposedly in possession of the U.S. that made everyone think al-Saadi was/is lying. If such evidence exists.
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### Author:  [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/9 "2003-04-12T21:07:43Z")
[On the other hand…](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/12/sprj.irq.chemical/index.html)
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### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/10 "2003-04-12T21:09:29Z")
Or this is another Loch Ness WoMD. Who knows?
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/11 "2003-04-12T21:53:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by sotally tober \*
> **Besides 2(?) suicide bombings, Hussein has done everything (seemingly) within conventional warfare stipulations.**
Is this a joke? [This site](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/7/203046.shtml) contains this quote:
> [@](#):
>
> Prosper identified at least several war crimes he believes Iraqi forces are already guilty of: ill treatment of prisoners and the dead and possibly willful execution of prisoners; photographing and humiliating U.S. prisoners of war; practicing treachery or perfidy by pretending to surrender and then firing on U.S. troops; and disguising soldiers as civilians.
[Here’s a press release](http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/77501a1757139f1685256cf5006d0193/ab1163526b30b91185256cf7003c8570/%24FILE/Marine%20Gen.%20Peter%20Pace%20Decries%20Iraqi%20War%20Crimes.txt) that details more war crimes. And that’s just 20 seconds of searching.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/12 "2003-04-12T21:58:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by sotally tober \*
> \*\*Besides 2(?) suicide bombings, Hussein has done everything (seemingly) within conventional warfare stipulations. America, on the other hand, has authorised chem warfare. heh. \*\*
What friggin’ war have you been watching?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/13 "2003-04-12T21:58:36Z")
Consider this: if this science guy is negotiating for lenient treatment, as he very well might be, what is his best card to play? If there are WMD’s, would he lie and hope they are not found? Considering, as I’ve said before, that surely someone else will grab the goodies the US is dangling as bait, that would be a dumb plan. The thing to do would be to turn United State’s evidence at the earliest opportunity.
Nonetheless, he insists that Iraq doesn’t have any WMDs for him to rat out. He is either a) very stupid or b) there aren’t any for him to use as a bargaining chip.
As I’ve noted before, why isn’t there a line of informers stretching down the block outside Army Intelligence HQ?
Besides that, I would very much like to see the “evidence” that Fearless Misleader swore he had. Clearly, the time for worrying about “exposing” a covert asset has passed, has it not? Unless, of course, as I darkly suspect, its all bullshit.
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### Author:  [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/14 "2003-04-13T00:24:54Z")
Are there any WMD?? What if yes? What if no?
That whole back-and-forth gets old really quick when you compare it to something that I find much more interesting and telling…
The Saddam Hussein Government did not use WMD in this war.
What about that? What does it mean? It could mean that Iraq simply has no WMD to use. Or, consider that the Iraqis have WMD, just as the USA does, but chose not to use them.
If you aren’t going to use your best (worst) weapons when the infidels are knocking on the gates of Babylon, when ARE you going to ever use them?
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/15 "2003-04-13T02:45:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> If there are WMD’s, would he lie and hope they are not found?
You’re assuming that this guy knew all of Saddam’s little secrets to start with. I see no reason to believe that this was the case.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/16 "2003-04-13T03:49:57Z")
Well, sure, **Spoofer**. If he don’t know nothing, he can’t tell nothing. Righty-o, there. But if these things are there, then any number of people are in an excellent postion to ingratiate themselves with the American regime. But for some reason, they don’t.
Which leads one to wonder if perhaps GeeDubya super-secret sources of intelligence on Saddams dreaded WMD’s might have been…lets be generous here…a bit off the mark.
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### Author:  [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/17 "2003-04-13T11:05:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \*
> \*\*You’re assuming that this guy knew all of Saddam’s little secrets to start with. I see no reason to believe that this was the case. \*\*
The General who has been arrested has been widely described in the press as Saddam’s chief scientific advisor, so I think it’s safe to assume that he knows anything there is to know. Interesting to see broadcasts of him being taken away after his arrest being broadcast on TV - I thought it was a breach of the Geneva convention to allow prisoners of war to be shown on TV?
Whether or not any remenents of chemical and biological weapons are found now seems not be particularly relevant, the fact is that none were used. The only people to use WMDs during the war have been the USA and the UK - expecting George Bush and Tony Blair to hand themselves in at the International Court of Justice any day now…
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/18 "2003-04-13T11:19:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by elucidator \*
> \*\*Which leads one to wonder if perhaps GeeDubya super-secret sources of intelligence on Saddams dreaded WMD’s might have been…lets be generous here…a bit off the mark. \*\*
[U.S. finally secures uranium warehouses](http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1319074,00.html)
> [@](#):
>
> U.S. intelligence apparently wasn’t much help. Only one CIA tip led U.N. inspectors to a discovery. In that case, a search of a nuclear scientist’s home found notes and documents relating to laser enrichment of uranium, a method Iraq briefly tried and abandoned in the 1980s. Most of the material was part of the scientist’s personal library, officials said later.
>
> “Often the intelligence was very detailed and precise, but it was wrong,” said a U.N. inspector who recently returned from Iraq and asked not to be identified. “It would say, **‘Go up the stairs, in the third door on the right, look in the corner, the weapons are there.’** But they never were. It’s hard to know if the intelligence was wrong, if the Iraqis got wind of it and moved it, or what. It was very frustrating. None of the tips really panned out.”
>
> CIA credibility is at stake. In a public report last October, the agency said “most analysts assess (that) Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.” It also said Iraq had “renewed production of chemical warfare agents,” and that “all key aspects” of its germ warfare program "are active and most elements are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf war.’ (bolding mine)
Just a WAG, but it sounds a lot like they were paying informants, and the informants were only too happy to come up with stories.
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### Author:  [@minega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minega)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/19 "2003-04-13T11:25:38Z")
Guys…ITS A SECRET!!!You answered the question!
On a serious note, think of how unlikely it is that Saddam just had a change of heart and destroyed them all. Did he have any? Of course. UN inspectors only found out in 1995 that he had a secret biological weapons program and he has built an awful amount of shit, If he wasnt building anything, why did he play those games with the inspectors until Bush threatened to deploy his own ‘peacekeepers?’
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### Author:  [@Sardaukar3925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sardaukar3925)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheres-the-secret-womd-evidence/168217/20 "2003-04-13T11:32:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Hamlet \*
> \*\*Is this a joke? [This site](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/7/203046.shtml) contains this quote: [Here’s a press release](http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/77501a1757139f1685256cf5006d0193/ab1163526b30b91185256cf7003c8570/%24FILE/Marine%20Gen.%20Peter%20Pace%20Decries%20Iraqi%20War%20Crimes.txt) that details more war crimes. And that’s just 20 seconds of searching. \*\*
Most of those arent real war crimes! Thats the kind of stuff that has always been used by the winning side as proof that the losing side was bad… Believe me, if you are ever grappling for a knife with a guy twice your size, you ll have no qualms about biting his throat or kicking him in the nuts…
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