# Which 12/19 Electoral College voting outcome would you prefer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 26, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083 "2016-11-26T20:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/41 "2016-11-28T20:20:34Z")
Outcome reversed. The difference in approaches to climate change alone justifies that AFAIAC. Hillary would honor the Paris accords, while Trump would withdraw the U.S. from them, and who knows what even a ‘moderate’ Republican like Mitt Romney might do. And certainly we’d have another few years of government stalemate under Hillary, but that’s been the case since 2010 anyway, and there are things worse than stalemate. Finally, if a ‘faithless Electoral College’ threw the election back to Hillary, that would get the GOP to support an EC fix, which would be great. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/42 "2016-11-28T20:22:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Massive voter fraud is shown, the Russians hacked our votes and swung the election to Trump. The EC has no choice but to vote Clinton in. Is this a claim you’re making? An attempt at your own #FakeNews? Or are you just stating what you hope will happen? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/43 "2016-11-28T20:36:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Finally, if a ‘faithless Electoral College’ threw the election back to Hillary, that would get the GOP to support an EC fix, which would be great. That’s the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is the Republicans realize they’ve been foolish in spending so much resources on gerrymandering, voter ID laws, and rigging voter machines. All they need to do is get a few dozen Electors in their pocket and they can appoint anyone they want as President forever. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/44 "2016-11-28T21:06:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is this a claim you’re making? An attempt at your own #FakeNews? Or are you just stating what you hope will happen? “In this thread, we’ll sidestep for a moment the issues of legality or the sheer unlikelihood of anyone but Trump being elected POTUS when the ballots are cast on 12/19; instead I would like to ask\* what outcome Dopers would personally prefer to see.” \* See if one would just read the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/45 "2016-11-28T21:10:02Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I detest Trump, but it’s not the job of the Electoral to vote in any way other than they were directed to. I don’t like protect votes and I don’t want them making up their own mind. > > Now, if there’s something dramatic like widespread voter fraud, OK, maybe. But I’d pretty much want to see a court ruling say “The vote was invalid. Electors, please vote for whoever you want to.” Unless instructed to use their discretion, electors shouldn’t be. There is nothing in the Constitution that directs electors how to vote and state laws to the contrary may not withstand a court challenge. From Article II: > [@](#): > > Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector. > > The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/46 "2016-11-28T21:37:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > As much as the idea of a President Trump is distasteful to me, I would prefer that the Electoral College follow the standards and precedents that the past many elections have set. > > Trump. 306-232 > [@drm](#): > > Speaking as an outsider, a reversal would be an absolute disaster long term. No issue with amending the system for the next election but this is the system you’ve chosen for this one. > > A reversal in the recount on the other hand…but that’s another thread. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I voted Sanders and Hillary, and have always been pro-Hillary, not just anti-Trump; I am deeply concerned about a Trump presidency, but I think I’m even more concerned about what happens if somehow the election flips at this point. I voted the first option. Ditto to all of this. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/47 "2016-11-28T22:18:36Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > There is nothing in the Constitution that directs electors how to vote and state laws to the contrary may not withstand a court challenge. While the Constitution doesn’t direct their votes, the states do. Even the states that don’t have laws to punish faithless Electors still expect that they’ll vote in the manner indicated by the state’s voters. And I’ve defended the basic structure of the Electoral College in another recent thread. I’m not bothered by the Constitution empowering independent votes in theory, because that gives states options that aren’t enabled by a simple numerical system. Still, I don’t think the writers of the Constitution themselves wanted the Electoral College to say “Nope, the people were dumb. We like Hillary.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/48 "2016-11-28T22:23:47Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > There is nothing in the Constitution that directs electors how to vote and state laws to the contrary may not withstand a court challenge. I disagree. As you quoted, the Constitution says “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors”. That clearly says the state legislatures can enact laws on Electors. There’s no equivalent text that says Electors are the individuals designated to choose who to vote for. The Constitution just says the Electors cast votes. And it’s not as if the authors were unaware of the distinction. Note that in the same paragraph, the Constitution says four times that Congress chooses a candidate if that duty falls on them. So that’s a strong argument that Electors, unlike members of Congress, weren’t intended to make a choice in their votes. Their role was to convey the votes as directed by their state legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/49 "2016-11-28T22:30:34Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > While the Constitution doesn’t direct their votes, the states do. Even the states that don’t have laws to punish faithless Electors still expect that they’ll vote in the manner indicated by the state’s voters. My understanding is that each state has two groups of Electors on stand-by. One group is directed to vote for Hillary Clinton and one group is directed to vote for Donald Trump. And the state appoints whichever group is committed to the candidate who got the most votes in the state (with some adjustments in Nebraska and Maine). ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/50 "2016-11-28T22:40:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. As you quoted, the Constitution says “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors”. That clearly says the state legislatures can enact laws on Electors. That clearly says that it’s up state legislatures to direct the manner in which electors are appointed. It doesn’t say jack about states directing how they vote. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/51 "2016-11-29T00:55:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As a loyal Clinton voter, I would prefer that the College elect Trump, because any deviation at this point would do far more harm to the workings of our democracy than good. It’s not a democracy and was never intended to be. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/52 "2016-11-29T17:59:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s not a democracy and was never intended to be. So totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/53 "2016-11-29T19:43:34Z")
The third option might as well say “I’m a sore loser”, because that option is sour grapes. Trump won; the EC should vote accordingly. I thought and still think Obama was thoroughly unqualified to be POTUS, but at no point did I or would I have ever wanted the EC to vote in Romney instead. If that happened, you would see the end of the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/54 "2016-11-29T19:52:20Z")
So - once and for all - is the EC meant to be a rubber-stamp, or a constitutional last-line-of-defense against an undesirable POTUS? Serious question, not rhetorical. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/55 "2016-11-29T20:05:54Z")
I think mostly rubber stamp, but a last ditch back up should something really horrible be revealed between the Nov General Election and the EC vote. Such as massive Voter fraud by the Russians. or a untimely death, etc. I want to stress I think that is very unlikely, but also not entirely impossible. So barring that, yes the EC should rubber stamp, altho a protest vote or two would not be totally out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/56 "2016-11-29T20:18:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So - once and for all - is the EC meant to be a rubber-stamp, or a constitutional last-line-of-defense against an undesirable POTUS? Serious question, not rhetorical. Meant by who? God? The Founding Fathers had many different intentions and aims. Some of them promoted the creation of the EC on that basis. Others didn’t. It wasn’t created to be a deliberative body, since it never meets. The details were left up to the individual states, who made a clear and unanimous decision to make the EC as close to a rubber stamp as possible. Why does their decision count for less than the Founders? And who cares what they meant anyway? Thomas Jefferson wasn’t a Founding Father (He was in France when the Constitution was drafted.) but he was a founder of the country nonetheless, and he warned against letting the dead hand of previous generations dictate our governance. He wanted the Constitution replaced every generation or so, by violent revolution if necessary (at least when he was a young revolutionary). But I think Jefferson was an overrated demagogue who spouted radical egalitarian rhetoric when it helped his cause and turned around and denied t when it didn’t. I say to hell with him _and_ the Founding Fathers. We should use the tools they gave us and any others we can find or devise for ourselves to make the world better for people today and in the future. Let the dead take care of the dead. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/57 "2016-11-29T23:16:21Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > …Jefferson was an overrated demagogue who spouted radical egalitarian rhetoric when it helped his cause and turned around and denied t when it didn’t. I say to hell with him _and_ the Founding Fathers. We should use the tools they gave us and any others we can find or devise for ourselves to make the world better for people today and in the future. Let the dead take care of the dead. Well said. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/58 "2016-11-29T23:27:06Z")
I say that they all go into the Thunderdome and the last one out gets to decide. I mean its been a shitshow for almost 2 years now, at least that shitshow would be somewhat interesting. It seemed to me no matter who wins, we are screwed anyway, but I’m not the most political guy. I voted for other (Thunderdome) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/59 "2016-11-30T00:43:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So - once and for all - is the EC meant to be a rubber-stamp, or a constitutional last-line-of-defense against an undesirable POTUS? Serious question, not rhetorical. To be honest, nobody knows what the original intent of the Constitution’s authors was. (Antonin Scalia knew but he’s dead.) The text says the Electors vote. That can be interpreted that they choose who to vote for or that they cast the votes that the state legislatures have directed them to cast. I will point out that the practice of having the Electors follow directions was instituted from the very beginning. And several of the people who wrote the Constitution were still alive and didn’t protest this. On the other hand, faithless Electors have been around from the beginning too (although they’ve never changed the outcome of an election). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083/60 "2016-12-10T20:33:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think mostly rubber stamp, but a last ditch back up should something really horrible be revealed between the Nov General Election and the EC vote. Such as massive Voter fraud by the Russians. or a untimely death, etc. > > I want to stress I think that is very unlikely, but also not entirely impossible. > > So barring that, yes the EC should rubber stamp, altho a protest vote or two would not be totally out of line. So, not so unlikely after all: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c\_story.html?hpid=hp\_hp-top-table-main\_russiahack-745p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm\_term=.211ef6bdfd2f](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_russiahack-745p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.211ef6bdfd2f) Explains why the polls were so wrong- they weren’t wrong. The election was fixed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-12-19-electoral-college-voting-outcome-would-you-prefer/773083.md?page=4)