# Which action girl series do you prefer: XENA or BUFFY? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965 "2010-01-06T22:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/41 "2010-01-08T20:57:28Z")
Buffy, Buffy, always Buffy. ETA: And here I always thought that Buffy had the hottest cast of any TV show, ever. May favorite character: Anya ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/42 "2010-01-08T21:23:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Relic Hunter_ did not suck ass. You take that back. Okay, I never watched more a couple of episodes of Relic Hunter, so I’ll buy that it wasn’t as bad as the other shows I listed. Looking at it’s wiki and IMDB pages it appears that it was on for 3 seasons which certainly gives it about 3 times as many episodes as these other shows. Instead pretend I listed _Jack of All Trades_ twice. It deserves special mention for completely wasting Bruce Campbell’s presence. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/43 "2010-01-08T22:04:36Z")
Buffy, easily. Xena was campy fun, Buffy was art (and still fun). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/44 "2010-01-08T22:28:20Z")
This is the kind of question that would be good for me to ask on a first date, if I started dating again. If anyone answered Xena then I’d know it was time to make my excuses politely and leave. If they said ‘who?’ then there’d be no need for excuses, of course. Xena was fun but it’s in the ‘so bad it’s good’ territory, and sometimes it was just bad. Buffy was high quality in every way. It was very much character-driven (that’s a really odd criticism - that’s like complaining it didn’t have vampires) and the characters all developed tons over the series (another really odd criticism). The only valid criticism in this thread is that Sunnydale was conspicuously white for a city in California. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/45 "2010-01-08T23:01:39Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > This is the kind of question that would be good for me to ask on a first date, if I started dating again. If anyone answered Xena then I’d know it was time to make my excuses politely and leave. If they said ‘who?’ then there’d be no need for excuses, of course. Nah. Just view it as an opportunity to watch the series again with someone new! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/46 "2010-01-09T00:37:44Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Nah. Just view it as an opportunity to watch the series again with someone new! 🙂 Not really. I’m serious - if someone hadn’t even _heard_ of Buffy then we’re going to be operating in such different worlds that the only way we could get together is in some sort of planetary collision catastrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/47 "2010-01-09T02:04:59Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Not really. I’m serious - if someone hadn’t even _heard_ of Buffy then we’re going to be operating in such different worlds that the only way we could get together is in some sort of planetary collision catastrophe. I’ve got to disagree with this assessment. **Ms. Attack** is a deeply geeky gal, and the love of my life, but she was, and is, so geeky that modern technology like the TV is instantly suspect, and shows with odd things like vampires and gods were also just too…too weird and modern for her. She is kind of ‘geek-classic’ the way geeks were in the olden days, when they just made subtle references to the Iliad in order to identify themselves to the tribe. After she met me, the man widely regarded as Speaker to the Geeks, she came more into the mainstream of our people. She now regards Buffy as one of the best TV shows ever. My point is, you may want to reconsider ‘Buffy who?’ as a deal-breaker. It’s probably a better answer than ‘I don’t watch Buffy’, or, in your case, ‘Xena’. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/48 "2010-01-09T04:10:57Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > True, but the Buffy movie had almost nothing to do with what the show would eventually become, and it was five years between the movie and the show, so it’s not exactly like it was fast tracked. > > Rightly or wrongly the producers of Hercules were seen as taking a big risk on basing a brand new action/fantasy show around two female leads in the late 90’s. (I know Xena was far from the first lead e on TV, ranging from Emma Peel, Wonder Woman and the Bionic Woman to Charlies Angels, but that was the perception at the time) And it succeeded better than anyone could have dared hope. After the success of Hercules and Xena there was an explosion of fantasy/action adventure shows between 1998 and roughly 2000/2001, and a lot of them had strong female leads or cast members. Buffy is generally seen as having capitalized on that renewed interest, and rightly so. It not only survived, but thrived and built a lasting fanbase, which is no small feat. Let’s not forget that for every Buffy, Angel or Charmed that prospered from this period there are a dozen shows that all died after a season or less. (There were shows based on Robin Hood, Sinbad, Conan, those Beastmaster movies from the 80’s, and original shows like Relic Hunter, Cleopatra 2525 and Jack of all Trades. Each and every one these shows sucked ass. Not one of them had the charm or quality of a Buffy/Angel, or Herc/Xena.) > > So yeah, I think if Xena had failed, Buffy the TV show would never have happened. Unfortunately, I still don’t believe this. While the movie was different from the series, it was still written by Joss. What he got to do in the TV series was closer to his vision. In fact, he changed the movie by having Buffy burning the gym down, which is what the original script did. So, it was very much what the creator, Joss, intended. Xena is closer to old series Star Trek in how the show is handled. Very few long running stories. Maybe a recurring villain but no arcs in general. The point being that someone can watch any episode and figure out what is happening. I say this because when JMS went to sell Babylon 5 to the networks, Star Trek made it more difficult! They wanted a weekly adventure series, not an ongoing story which is harder to sell. I think this is the case with Buffy as well. It took years to get a network to take it and then it was WB, hardly a mainstream network. Finally, Buffy started in '97. Early '97, in fact, as a half season for the first season. My point is that you are saying that Buffy got help from those other series when in fact, Buffy probably made them possible to have a show with a strong female lead and with fantasy theme, both of which are traditionally hard to sell. Further, there have always been series like what you describe going back thirty years in terms of not doing well. Friday the 13th, Legend, Time Cop, Time Trax, The Crow and more. Again, I am not arguing about whatever your preference for a show is. That’s fine! I just don’t think what you are saying is accurate about how Buffy got started. vislor ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/49 "2010-01-09T06:59:58Z")
\*Xena \*all the way, even though I’m painfully aware of how bad the show became in the fifth season. I know these boards too well to get into how and why I dislike _Buffy_. > [@vislor](#): > > Xena is closer to old series Star Trek in how the show is handled. Very few long running stories. Maybe a recurring villain but no arcs in general. I’m guessing you didn’t watch a lot of _Xena_, because what you say here is incorrect. I wish you were right though, because I really disliked some of the later _Xena_ arcs. Then again, I disliked some of the later stand-alone episodes even more. Take _Married With Fishsticks_…please! > [@](#): > > \*Finally, Buffy started in '97. Early '97, in fact, as a half season for the first season. My point is that you are saying that Buffy got help from those other series when in fact, Buffy probably made them possible to have a show with a strong female lead and with fantasy theme, both of which are traditionally hard to sell. \*_Xena_ started in 1995. Although there’s no way to be sure, I think **Jihi** is correct that if a fantasy/action series with a female lead had flopped big time in 1995 then it would have badly hurt the prospects of any other fantasy/action series with a female lead for years to come. Had _Xena_ never existed at all then _Buffy_ might have been produced anyway, but had _Xena_ failed then it would only have made _Buffy_ harder to pitch. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/50 "2010-01-09T07:09:38Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > While the movie was different from the series, it was still written by Joss. What he got to do in the TV series was closer to his vision. In fact, he changed the movie by having Buffy burning the gym down, which is what the original script did. So, it was very much what the creator, Joss, intended. That doesn’t speak to the fact that _Buffy_ didn’t exist on television – and may not have gotten the green light – until _Xena_ paved the way two years prior by showing a female-led action series with fantasy elements could thrive. (Edited to add: or basically what **Lamia** said. :D) > [@](#): > > Xena is closer to old series Star Trek in how the show is handled. Very few long running stories. Maybe a recurring villain but no arcs in general. Very much not true. Perhaps during the first two seasons, but much of the back end of the third season was an arc involving the rift that developed between Xena and Gabrielle when Xena’s latest obsession led Gabrielle into the hands of the evil God Dahok, who implanted his hellspawn into Gabs, who gave birth to said hellspawn, whom Xena wanted to kill, and Gabs lied to her claiming that she’d sacrificed the baby, which later led to the murder of Xena’s child and revelation that Gabrielle had lied, and yadda yadda. Huge interconnected season-ender there. Fourth season had the ongoing arc of death/ascendance/death again, starting with Gabrielle’s sacrifice and Xena’s attempts to recover her, and Callisto’s revenge and Gabrielle’s ongoing transformation to a pacifist and the whole Eli/Jesus analogy and Xena’s premonitions of getting crucified… and then the apotheosis of the death of Caesar. (God, was there a better episode than _Ides of March_? As ambitious, deep, earthshattering and transcendent as anything on _Buffy_.) Fifth season’s arc was all about resurrection and the birth of Xena’s child, the God-killer (Livia/Eve). I remember less about this season because of the horrific 25-year-leap that ended my captivation with the show. Still, the sixth season had a few overlapping arcs, basically the reformation of Xena’s bitchy daughter, and the whole expedition to Norseland, and… ugh, I dunno, it was such a hot mess that I wasn’t paying much attention. The whole reason third and fourth season _Xena_ was so frikkin’ amazing was the overriding arcs and themes that brought the show to a whole 'nother level. It wasn’t monster/annoyed deity/evil warlord of the week. They touched on those in eps within the arcs, but most episodes focused on the major issues of Xena/Gabrielle’s mutual betrayals and how, if at all, they could rise beyond death itself to save their souls. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/51 "2010-01-09T07:54:44Z")
Anybody who’s citing Emma Peel as the first action girl is overlooking Cathy Gale, played by Honor Blackman, who directly preceded Emma on _The Avengers_. Footage of her leather-clad form kicking ass is on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/52 "2010-01-09T13:00:33Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I’ve got to disagree with this assessment. **Ms. Attack** is a deeply geeky gal, and the love of my life, but she was, and is, so geeky that modern technology like the TV is instantly suspect, and shows with odd things like vampires and gods were also just too…too weird and modern for her. She is kind of ‘geek-classic’ the way geeks were in the olden days, when they just made subtle references to the Iliad in order to identify themselves to the tribe. > > After she met me, the man widely regarded as Speaker to the Geeks, she came more into the mainstream of our people. She now regards Buffy as one of the best TV shows ever. My point is, you may want to reconsider ‘Buffy who?’ as a deal-breaker. It’s probably a better answer than ‘I don’t watch Buffy’, or, in your case, ‘Xena’. But your GF had at least _heard_ of Buffy. If someone hasn’t even heard of Buffy then their frame of reference is too different to mine. It’s not about what they like and don’t like, but the world they move in. TBF, I am extremely picky when it comes to long term relationships and am very lucky that I met someone who fit my ridiculously long list of criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/53 "2010-01-09T16:15:42Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > But your GF had at least _heard_ of Buffy. If someone hasn’t even heard of Buffy then their frame of reference is too different to mine. It’s not about what they like and don’t like, but the world they move in. TBF, I am extremely picky when it comes to long term relationships and am very lucky that I met someone who fit my ridiculously long list of criteria. I’m not sure she had heard of Buffy when I met her. I don’t think she had. I’ll have to ask her. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/54 "2010-01-09T23:39:25Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Very much not true. Perhaps during the first two seasons, but much of the back end of the third season was an arc involving the rift that developed between Xena and Gabrielle when Xena’s latest obsession led Gabrielle into the hands of the evil God Dahok, who implanted his hellspawn into Gabs, who gave birth to said hellspawn, whom Xena wanted to kill, and Gabs lied to her claiming that she’d sacrificed the baby, which later led to the murder of Xena’s child and revelation that Gabrielle had lied, and yadda yadda. Huge interconnected season-ender there. Yeah, Xena was much more heavily arc based than people seem to realize. The 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons were all based heavily in serialized storytelling and one season lead to the next. ‘The Rift’ in season 3 led to Gabrielle’s ‘pacifism’ in season 4, (she no longer had the hero worship thing going on with Xena and was looking for answers elsewhere), which led indirectly to the duo’s death and resurrection in season 5 which is where Xena experienced her ‘immaculate conception’ at the hands of an ‘anglicized’ Callisto which is how she gave birth to Eve/Livia which led Xena back to Rome, etc… Also, **choie** , _Ides of March_ is hands down my second favorite season finale of all time, one of the most powerful hours of television I’ve ever seen. It’s just too bad the show went to hell shortly there afterward. [Quote=Lamia] Xena started in 1995. Although there’s no way to be sure, I think Jihi is correct that if a fantasy/action series with a female lead had flopped big time in 1995 then it would have badly hurt the prospects of any other fantasy/action series with a female lead for years to come. Had Xena never existed at all then Buffy might have been produced anyway, but had Xena failed then it would only have made Buffy harder to pitch. [/Quote] I think right here **Lamia** may have hit on where **vislor** and I were talking past one another by differentiating two statements. “Buffy wouldn’t have existed without Xena”, is of course not true. Buffy was well developed by Joss long before Xena existed. “Buffy wouldn’t have been greenlit as a show if Xena had failed”, is a very different statement and is closer to what I was trying to say. Xena’s success is part of what allowed Joss to successfully pitch the show to the execs at WB. Just to be clear if I haven’t, I was a huge fan of Buffy as well and I thought it was a great show. I have room enough in my heart for both. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/55 "2010-01-10T00:11:33Z")
I don’t have a deep critical analysis here. I was kind of skeptical of both to start, but got sucked into BtVS in Season Two & hooked. Never had that with Xena. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/56 "2010-01-10T08:56:59Z")
I’m not certain the success of Xena had anything to do with Buffy being greenlit - seems like idle speculation to me, unless there’s a cite for some producer saying so. I think it was greenlit because it was clear it was a good show with an attractive young cast, just the sort of thing the WB was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965/57 "2010-01-11T17:29:12Z")
Buffy by a landslide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-action-girl-series-do-you-prefer-xena-or-buffy/523965.md?page=2)