# Which answer from the IRS is Irwin Schiff looking for?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464 "2005-11-10T20:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/1 "2005-11-10T20:08:46Z")
I was going to put this in GQ, but I thought better of it. Seems there may not be a single correct answer to the OP. From [here.](http://www.paynoincometax.com/news060903.htm) > [@Irwin Schiff](#): > > And based on this additional research they all concluded that: 1) no law required them “to pay” income taxes; 2) no law made them “liable,” for income taxes; and, 3) they had no “income” which was taxable under our revenue laws. Two witnesses testified that if Mr. Evan J. Davis, the government’s attorney, would show them a law (on cross-examination) which required them to pay taxes, they would go back to paying income taxes. But Mr. Davis showed them no such law, nor did he attempt to impeach or contradict their testimony in any way. Based on other threads regarding such topics it always seems like an open and shut case. YOU MUST PAY TAXES!! However, I would like someone to quote the ITC (income tax code) and/or provide a specific law requiring specific persons having to pay taxes in the manner which Irwin Schiff is presenting. Basically, it sounds like he is taking liberty with the use of the word _income_, among others, and using that to his advantage. Why is he being allowed to do this? Why is the government having such a hard time convicting the man if he indeed is in the wrong and why can’t an IRS agent point to specific language in the code that says he has to pay and how much? IOW, the code should be able to outline him as an income gathering citizen and there should be direct language as such. If there isn’t such language in the code then why is it so ambiguous? more from the link. > [@Irwin Schiff](#): > > In addition, as I handed him the Internal Revenue Code, I offered to withdraw my opposition to the preliminary injunction if Davis would simply cite the law that made persons “liable” for income taxes; however, he refused to do so. When I challenged Davis to cross-examine me concerning anything in my books and tapes he claimed promoted tax evasion, he stated, “I don’t see any reason to cross-examine this witness, your Honor.” When I sought to make Davis my witness and examine him concerning statements he made in seeking the preliminary injunction, he refused to take the witness stand. Seems as though a representative of the IRS basked down under the threat of cross examination. Why? Can someone point out specific language in the Code? And if not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/2 "2005-11-10T20:13:08Z")
I can’t quote chapter and verse but this approach sounds like an invitation to prison. [Sounds like a frivolous argument to me.](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/frivolousarguments-3-14-2005.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/3 "2005-11-10T20:21:40Z")
I think the June 9 2003 webpage by “professional tax resister” Irwin Schiff that you linked to is a trifle out of date. As of 24 October 2005, the IRS and the Department of Justice appear to have encountered no insurmountable legal obstacles to [nailing Mr. Schiff’s sorry tax-evading ass](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=55524). > [@](#): > > A federal jury in Las Vegas, Nevada convicted Irwin Schiff and two associates, Cynthia Neun and Lawrence Cohen, of aiding and assisting in the preparation of false income tax returns filed by other taxpayers in connection with a tax scam, and convicted Schiff and Neun of conspiring to defraud the United States, the Department of Justice and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) announced today. > > Schiff was convicted on all counts, including income tax evasion and of filing false income tax returns for the years 1997 through 2002 […] > > According to the indictment and the evidence introduced at trial, beginning in 1995, the defendants directed thousands of taxpayers to file false federal income tax returns with the IRS that reported zero taxable income in spite of the taxpayers earning large amounts of reportable income. The defendants operated the scam through Freedom Books-a business owned by Schiff-that sold books, tapes, and packets encouraging customers not to pay income tax. […] > > Schiff – who faces a maximum sentence of 43 years in prison and $3.25 million in fines–was remanded to the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service and is scheduled to be sentenced on January 20, 2006 at 10:30 A.M. Mr. Schiff’s contention that he has a First Amendment right to sell books that advocate and advise on cheating the IRS ultimately does not seem to have held up in court. > [@Irwin Schiff on 9 June 2003](#): > > Since I have filed “zero” returns myself for over 13 years without negative legal consequences, one might assume that others would be free to do the same. Ha ha, sucker. Enjoy your 43-year “vacation”, you slimy little thief. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/4 "2005-11-10T20:37:26Z")
It always amazes me that these income tax nuts believe, on the one hand, that income taxes are a scam and no one legally has to pay them, and on the other hand, all they have to do is point this out to the Zionist Occupation Government judge, and the judge will be forced to let them go. An oppressive dictatorial government doesn’t need a law to take your money, throw you in jail, or shoot you in the back of the head and dump you in a mass grave. They’ll just do whatever they like, admiralty flag or no admiralty flag. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/5 "2005-11-10T20:47:47Z")
Ah, upon digging trough more of his website I have found the he is indeed behind bars, awaiting his sentencing and possible appeal. [Some info here.](http://www.irwinschiff.blogspot.com/) Why did it take the IRS and the government soooo long to nail this guy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/6 "2005-11-10T20:59:05Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Ah, upon digging trough more of his website I have found the he is indeed behind bars, awaiting his sentencing and possible appeal. > > [Some info here.](http://www.irwinschiff.blogspot.com/) > > Why did it take the IRS and the government soooo long to nail this guy? Probably because they kept using courtrooms that had an American flag with gold fringe on it. That’s always a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/7 "2005-11-10T23:06:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Probably because they kept using courtrooms that had an American flag with gold fringe on it. That’s not fair, **Bricker** –I think you’re presuming gilt. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![19ForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/439d5e/32.png) [@19ForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19ForMe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/8 "2005-11-11T00:12:05Z")
After a quick check - Section 1(a) states “There is hereby imposed on taxable income …” Section 63(a) states “… the term “taxable income” means gross income minus the deductions …” Section 61(a) states “… gross income means all income from whatever source derived…” Section 6301 states “The Secretary shall collect the taxes imposed by the internal revenue laws.” Section 7701(a)(11)(B) states “The term “Secretary” means the Secretary of the Treasury or his delegate.” I’ve never looked into the arguments of these loons. From the OP link, I guess he doesn’t think the law says he is “liable.” I’m not going to search several thousand pages to find the exact word he likes. It does at least say there is a tax “imposed” on him and the Secretary of the Treasury is given wide latitude to force him to cough up the dough. The IRS starts with a polite form letter. Then: Section 7201 - “Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment therof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a felony and, upon convition thereof, shall be fined not more than $100,000 ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), or be imprisoned not more than 5 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution.” ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/9 "2005-11-13T06:35:46Z")
I posted about Ol Irwin on 10-26, but you posted a better OP. I used to enjoy reading his books (none of which can be found in the library system…hmmmm) Why DID it take so long? How many years did he get out of paying taxes/ ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/10 "2005-11-13T11:00:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That’s not fair, **Bricker** –I think you’re presuming gilt. > > Daniel Very, very nice. ---
**Author:** ![ishamael69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@ishamael69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ishamael69)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/11 "2005-11-13T17:22:30Z")
My biggest (only?) problem is that the government restricted him from publishing a book. I’ve got no problem throwing him in jail for tax evasion, but preventing him from publishing “subversive literature” should be a big no-no. I couldn’t find anywhere for certain that talked about the status of the injunction on the book. Is it still banned? If so, how can they do that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/12 "2005-11-13T17:29:13Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Very, very nice. Comedy gold, I tell ya! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/13 "2005-11-13T22:23:41Z")
Schiff is mentioned in the [Tax Protestor’s FAQ](http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html), amusingly enough under the “Paranoid Delusions” section. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/14 "2005-11-13T22:55:37Z")
> [@ishamael69](#): > > My biggest (only?) problem is that the government restricted him from publishing a book. I’ve got no problem throwing him in jail for tax evasion, but preventing him from publishing “subversive literature” should be a big no-no. I couldn’t find anywhere for certain that talked about the status of the injunction on the book. Is it still banned? If so, how can they do that? Fraud? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-answer-from-the-irs-is-irwin-schiff-looking-for/330464/15 "2005-11-14T15:16:13Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Fraud? 😕 How can a book be fraud?