# Which "arms" should be protected by the Second Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795 "2016-03-21T20:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/21 "2016-03-22T05:14:54Z")
Arms protected by the Second Amendment are those in a well-regulated militia. Arms held outside lawfully constituted authority are in _infringement_ of the militia’s right to keep arms. Words mean things. At present, most state governments have allowed private individuals to keep arms for personal use. The private gun owner is not in infringement because he has been granted a license by the state. _This is not constitutionally mandated, and may be bad policy in practice._ I think it’s wiser to adopt an actual “regulated militia” model. I don’t mean the National Guard, nor do I mean the old slave patrols that operated under that name. I mean, do it like the Swiss. You want guns? Great. You’re going to be conscripted, _everybody,_ when you turn eighteen, and indoctrinated, and issued a firearm. That weapon is not yours. You will keep and bear it on condition of regular drilling and good behavior. And it can be taken away from you forever if you screw up. That’s my answer. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/22 "2016-03-22T05:17:00Z")
As for the present SCotUSA, I deny their major premise. The constitution obviously does not grant a personal right to “arms” in any category, and it’s nonsensical to try to find one. It does not say what they pretend it says. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/23 "2016-03-22T05:18:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. It’s also meant as a hedge against tyranny. You’re both wrong. It was written to protect the ability of local authorities to raise _posse_ to run down criminals and runaway slaves. There’s an actual history here. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/24 "2016-03-22T05:25:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I would not be surprised if at the end of the day the stun gun ban in Mass is upheld, and Caetano is still prohibited from purchasing a weapon to defend herself. Because weapon laws in Mass. fucking suck. Well presumably she is still able to take a self defense course. In fact, she probably should have done that to begin with. Although maybe she has and did. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/25 "2016-03-22T05:28:36Z")
That said, it doesn’t matter what I think. It doesn’t matter what someone in 1787 thought they were writing. The actual common-law constitution is whatever hogwash nine mediocre lawyers think up. And Alito is quite right that it’s silly to tell someone that she can’t buy a stungun and that she should have instead bought a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/26 "2016-03-22T05:56:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Arms protected by the Second Amendment are those in a well-regulated militia. Arms held outside lawfully constituted authority are in _infringement_ of the militia’s right to keep arms. And that “lawfully constituted authority” is, in point of fact, recognized by the Second Amendment, regardless of how reluctant you are to admit that. > [@](#): > > During the American Revolutionary War, weapons and equipment were often in short supply. Iron foundries, such as Hopewell Furnace, produced weapons for the Continental Army. However, many soldiers and officers provided their own weapons and household items. They also carried the equipment needed to fight, such as shot molds, tinder lighters and cartridge boxes. [http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/guco/gucoweapons.html](http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/guco/gucoweapons.html) > [@](#): > > As soon as the American Revolution started, continental soldiers were required to be equipped with a firearm and a secondary melee weapon. But unlike the England’s militia regulations, in which the authorities controlled the arms and stored them in a secured central location, continental soldiers had to provide their own weapons. > **[Weapons used during the American revolution](https://weaponsusedduringtheamericanrevo.weebly.com/)** > > As soon as the American Revolution started, continental soldiers were required to be equipped with a firearm and a secondary melee weapon. But unlike the England’s militia regulations, in which the... > [@](#): > > Each individual militiaman was expected to provide his own weapon-usually a smoothbore musket-and ammunition, clothing, and food for a short expedition, just as the British knight had been required to provide his own horse, armor, and suitable weapons for feudal warfare. Local authorities maintained reserve supplies of muskets to arm those too poor to buy them and collected stores of ammunition and sometimes small cannon that could be dragged along through the wilderness. [http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-6-1/CMH\_Pub\_70-6-1.pdf](http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-6-1/CMH_Pub_70-6-1.pdf) (pages 25, 26) Based on historical practices, ANY weapon that can be reasonably operated and maintained by a single person – including but not limited to machine guns, flamethrowers, and grenades – is therefore included under the Second Amendment. Indeed, a strong argument could be made in this day and age that every able-bodied male of good character 18-45 years old should be _required_ to own at least one of those weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/27 "2016-03-22T05:57:11Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well presumably she is still able to take a self defense course. In fact, she probably should have done that to begin with. Although maybe she has and did. Totally relevant to what I was saying! I mean it’s her fault for not being a ninja, amiright? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/28 "2016-03-22T06:30:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Totally relevant to what I was saying! I mean it’s her fault for not being a ninja, amiright? It’s a common misconception among firearm enthusiasts that their hobby provides a superior method of self-defense. We’re here to fight ignorance. The best way to learn about defending yourself is to -wait for it- take a class in self defense. Model mugging frameworks are particularly helpful. Sure, you can read NRA propaganda instead, but that’s like taking health classes from the tobacco lobby. I say stick with the professionals. I go to an auto mechanic when I want my car repaired. I see a physician when I’m sick. My dentist evaluates my teeth: I don’t ask him repair my air conditioner. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/29 "2016-03-22T06:38:23Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Based on historical practices, ANY weapon that can be reasonably operated and maintained by a single person – including but not limited to machine guns, flamethrowers, and grenades – is therefore included under the Second Amendment. Indeed, a strong argument could be made in this day and age that every able-bodied male of good character 18-45 years old should be _required_ to own at least one of those weapons. This presumably includes bazookas, according to this point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/30 "2016-03-22T06:42:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s a common misconception among firearm enthusiasts that their hobby provides a superior method of self-defense. We’re here to fight ignorance. Again - a total non sequitur. No one was discussing the relative value of different self defense methods. But now that you’ve brought it up, the idea that some other hand to hand or other method is as effective for self defense or more so than a firearm is laughable. I laugh. Ignorance, indeed. When the police think they are better served defending themselves without firearms in this country then the idea may be worth considering. Until then it’s an unfunny joke. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/31 "2016-03-22T08:40:53Z")
Late 18th century guns. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/32 "2016-03-22T11:30:40Z")
While serving in the militia (National Guard)- all arms are protected. While not serving in the militia- nothing is protected. The oft-repeated saw that everybody is in the militia became outdated when National Guard units were created in every state. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/33 "2016-03-22T11:47:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The oft-repeated saw that everybody is in the militia became outdated when National Guard units were created in every state. True - not “everybody” is in the militia. As DinoR said, federal law, in defining the militia, excludes old people, children, and most women. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/34 "2016-03-22T12:54:31Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > Late 18th century guns. Yes - a literal reading of the words as they were written is that there is no infringement on the right to carry a flintlock musket as long as you’re wearing a tricorn hat. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > The actual common-law constitution is whatever hogwash nine mediocre lawyers think up. Only five, one of whom is gone and about to be replaced. > [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. It’s also meant as a hedge against tyranny. Nothing else in the Constitution is consistent with that view. The several mentions of \*suppressing \*rebellion are contrary to it. The _Red Dawn_ view is entirely fanciful. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/35 "2016-03-22T13:09:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. It’s also meant as a hedge against tyranny. No longer applicable. If you think rifle-toting citizens would have a chance against the black helicopters, you’re delusional. The anti-tyranny argument might have made sense 200 years ago when the government and the citizenry were on more equal terms of firepower, but the balance is so far tipped in the government’s favor that thought of an armed uprising will never be more than a right-wing fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/36 "2016-03-22T13:09:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes - a literal reading of the words as they were written is that there is no infringement on the right to carry a flintlock musket as long as you’re wearing a tricorn hat. I trust this is a joke. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nothing else in the Constitution is consistent with that view. This, too? Come now, you don’t think the drafters and signers of the Constitution, considering the term “a free State,” had in mind freedom from monarchs? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/37 "2016-03-22T13:11:47Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > Late 18th century guns. Late 18th century printing presses. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/38 "2016-03-22T13:16:03Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I trust this is a joke. It’s a literal reading of the words as they were defined at the time, isn’t it? It’s a joke only to the extent that torturing and redefining, and often even ignoring, half of the amendment itself is a joke. > [@](#): > > Come now, you don’t think the drafters and signers of the Constitution, considering the term “a free State,” had in mind freedom from monarchs? The free state was, of course, the US government as defined in the Constitution, which explicitly provides for means to defend \*it \*from rebellion. The framers did provide a means to “overthrow” it, by laying out the mechanism for a new constitutional convention. The right of rebellion that so many claim was in there has zero support, and would be pretty damn silly if it were - speaking of jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/39 "2016-03-22T13:29:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s a common misconception among firearm enthusiasts that their hobby provides a superior method of self-defense. We’re here to fight ignorance. Good, then I will join in the fight. > [@](#): > > The best way to learn about defending yourself is to -wait for it- take a class in self defense. Model mugging frameworks are particularly helpful. Sure, you can read NRA propaganda instead, but that’s like taking health classes from the tobacco lobby. > > I say stick with the professionals. I go to an auto mechanic when I want my car repaired. I see a physician when I’m sick. My dentist evaluates my teeth: I don’t ask him repair my air conditioner. I am a professional, or at least I was for some years, and as a professional teacher of self-defense, I will correct this. A weapon is better than self-defense training in most situations, especially for women. Firearms are a superior method of self-defense to any form of hand-to-hand combat training. There - now stick to what the professionals say, and you won’t go far wrong. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795/40 "2016-03-22T14:43:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The best way to learn about defending yourself is to -wait for it- take a class in self defense. Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-arms-should-be-protected-by-the-second-amendment/749795.md?page=3)