# Which Asian country will Iraq wind up resembling? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395 "2003-11-20T23:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/21 "2003-11-22T13:45:14Z")
You can make the case that US troops were defending Japan from the Soviets and CHina, and also defend Japan today from North Korea, with South Korea being the frontline. South Korea and Japan both see it this way. South Korea has been pressuring Japan for foreign aid for years, saying that they spend such a high percentage of their GDP on defending Japan. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/22 "2003-11-22T13:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You can make the case that US troops were defending Japan from the Soviets and CHina, and also defend Japan today from North Korea, with South Korea being the frontline. South Korea and Japan both see it this way. South Korea has been pressuring Japan for foreign aid for years, saying that they spend such a high percentage of their GDP on defending Japan. \*\* [Japan has 45,000 troops in the DMZ.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/mar03/123494.asp) That’s more than the US has there. Who’s defending who? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/23 "2003-11-22T14:08:13Z")
Lookin gover your posts, **adaher** , it seems we are squabbling on the same side of the argument. We seem to both feel that Korea is a parallel for the likely outcome in Iraq, i.e., an economic success story at the expense of continued heavy US troop involvement. I however, can not see 5 decades of military action, however cool, as an unqualified success in the same way Japan is. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/24 "2003-11-23T08:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scotandrsn \* > **[Japan has 45,000 troops in the DMZ.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/mar03/123494.asp)** I think you read the article incorrectly. It says: > [@](#): > > There now are about 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea, mostly Army soldiers but also members of the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and special operations forces. It is the **second-largest concentration of American forces** in Asia **behind Japan** , which has about 45,000. (Bolding mine.) The 45,000 refers to the number of American troops in Japan. There have been only a few cases of the Japanese SDF (Self Defence Force) being deployed overseas, and it’s always been a controvarisial action since it’s not clear whether this is constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![zinjanthropus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@zinjanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zinjanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/25 "2003-11-23T10:52:25Z")
American troops will stay for years, but not in a protective role as is their function in South Korea. American soldiers are occupation troops. ``` A significant number of Iraqis will continue to hate being occupied by Americans, and killings of Americans will continue. Americans will continue to ask : why? A very weak American-puppet , ostensibly democratic government will break up rather quickly. Strongmen will come back, one of whom will be the never-caught Saddam Hussein. Iraq will become like post-Tito Yugoslavia: warring factions. ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/26 "2003-11-23T11:45:50Z")
That’s a possibility, but I have a lot more faith in American performance than that. You will rarely win betting against the United States when we set out to do something. We find ways to make things work. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/27 "2003-11-23T12:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*That’s a possibility, but I have a lot more faith in American performance than that. > > You will rarely win betting against the United States when we set out to do something. We find ways to make things work. \*\* This is the same bullshit wishful thinking that got the US into the mess in the first place. There’s no plan, no willingness to address downsides. Go the underpants gnomes! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/28 "2003-11-23T12:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You will rarely win betting against the United States when we set out to do something. \*\* Exactly just _what_ did “you” you set out to do in Iraq? Now _that’s_ the billion dollar question. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/29 "2003-11-23T12:55:04Z")
Yep, the same wishful thinking that got us to the Moon. The same wishful thinking that founded this country when all the monarchs of the world were sure we would fail. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/30 "2003-11-23T13:02:01Z")
Ah. The insanity defense. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/31 "2003-11-23T13:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Yep, the same wishful thinking that got us to the Moon Tsch, _everyone_ knows that was faked. I guess you could fake a peaceful, democratic Iraq too though 😉 ---
**Author:** ![zinjanthropus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@zinjanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zinjanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/32 "2003-11-23T23:04:52Z")
“Yep, the same wishful thinking that got us to the Moon. The same wishful thinking that founded this country when all the monarchs of the world were sure we would fail.” ``` We are talking about the justice of America's invasion and occupation of Iraq, not sheer engineering prowess. The Nazis were pretty good at sheer engineering prowess too- their processing of millions of Jews and others they didn't like was most technically efficient. Also, democracy is not an American invention, and other countries have established themselves in equally heroic circumstances. Engineering prowess and a historical revolt against a mother country do not in any way justify America's invasion and occupation of Iraq. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/33 "2003-11-24T03:48:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > That’s a possibility, but I have a lot more faith in American performance than that. > > You will rarely win betting against the United States when we set out to do something. We find ways to make things work. Looks at Somalia. _shakes head_ ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/34 "2003-11-24T06:39:14Z")
\*\*We are talking about the justice of America’s invasion and occupation of Iraq, not sheer engineering prowess. The Nazis were pretty good at sheer engineering prowess too- their processing of millions of Jews and others they didn’t like was most technically efficient. \*\* Forming democracy here was not just about engineering process. We know a little something about how to build democracy. \*\*Looks at Somalia. \*\* That’s called failure of will. Many of us have already given up. I shudder to think how this generation would have behaved during WWII. The US war effort would have been hamstrung in ways that might have ensured our defeat. Or we would have stopped at the German border, having restored the status quo. And after all, regime change in Germany would be so destabilizing, and we can’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/35 "2003-11-24T06:39:14Z")
\*\*We are talking about the justice of America’s invasion and occupation of Iraq, not sheer engineering prowess. The Nazis were pretty good at sheer engineering prowess too- their processing of millions of Jews and others they didn’t like was most technically efficient. \*\* Forming democracy here was not just about engineering process. We know a little something about how to build democracy. \*\*Looks at Somalia. \*\* That’s called failure of will. Many of us have already given up. I shudder to think how this generation would have behaved during WWII. The US war effort would have been hamstrung in ways that might have ensured our defeat. Or we would have stopped at the German border, having restored the status quo. And after all, regime change in Germany would be so destabilizing, and we can’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/36 "2003-11-24T06:46:47Z")
Adaher, please, you’re embarrassing us in front of the foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/37 "2003-11-24T07:42:18Z")
there is no asian nation model, but yugoslavia comes more to mind. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/38 "2003-11-24T07:58:35Z")
If you are an optimist, Czechoslovakia. Although Yugoslavia is a lot less violent ever since the US intervened. ---
**Author:** ![zinjanthropus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@zinjanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zinjanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/39 "2003-11-24T09:05:02Z")
" Forming democracy here was not just about engineering process. We know a little something about how to build democracy. " You had earlier brought up America’s having gotten to the moon as an achievement, which it was, but it was an engineering achievement that has nothing to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Nothing. As for knowing “a little something about how to build democracy”, well, sometimes America has succeded and sometimes America has failed. Vietnam, Somalia (oh, yes, a mere “failure of will” according to you), Lebanon, Haiti, others. ``` America has the military might to invade and occupy any 3rd world country. Indeed it can just obliterate all of them by firing nuclear-armed missiles at them from thousands of miles away, or dropping bombs on them from Stealth Bombers and B-52s at 35,000 feet. That's not the point. The point is America does not have the right to unilaterally invade any country it wants to. If there were a bunch of Iraqis or any other kind of foreigner running around the U.S. killing Americans, would Americans not fight back? Of course. Are people in other countries less courageous thn Americans in fighting foreigners? No. ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395/40 "2003-11-24T09:57:32Z")
If the US suffered a fascist takeover, and Canada and Britain invaded and toppled him, Americans would not resist, we’d be grateful. And if there were some McVeigh-type diehards committing terrorist acts, killing occupation troops, we’d be turning them in, not cheering them on. I think there is definitely a standard that is almost racist in nature as to how we react to dictatorship. If France or Germany suffered a coup and a fascist dictator took over, you could measure the US response in hours, and we’d have the full backing of just about everyone in Europe to restore democracy. But the little brown people don’t deserve such consideration I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-asian-country-will-iraq-wind-up-resembling/214395.md?page=3)