# Which assassin is baddest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921 "2003-04-29T14:51:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/21 "2003-04-29T23:34:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*Teatime (pronounced tee-ah-tim-eh). \*\* Or perhaps Vetinari. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/22 "2003-04-29T23:50:47Z")
Sorry, but Jerry Cornelius will just kill any of the other assassins grand parents before the assassins parents are even born, and will do it in all the possible universes. It’s kind of hard to beat self created time travel. Of course whether Jerry could be bothered to kill any assassin in particular is quite unlikely if he thinks they are fun. ---
**Author:** ![Trucido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@Trucido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trucido)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/23 "2003-04-30T00:25:54Z")
The Old Man of the Mountain, one Hassan ibn al-Sabbah. He was the chap who was so kind as to create the cult of Assassins. Come on, folks, when they name the profession after you, that has to count for a lot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/24 "2003-04-30T00:44:12Z")
Nicholai Hel from Trevanian’s novel Shibumi ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/25 "2003-04-30T01:05:31Z")
[Zorgon Gola killed the entire Punyverse.](http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=010730&mode=weekly) Beat that. ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/26 "2003-04-30T01:13:16Z")
What, nobody’s going to mention Artemis Entreri (Icewind Dale trilogy, R.A. Salvatore)? Most of the rest of these guys are simply unhuman (time travel? Killing God? Come on). Artemis was entirely mundane but still a total badass. The guy was an even match for Drizzt Do’Urden, and that’s saying something. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/27 "2003-04-30T01:40:07Z")
Salvatore sucks. I don’t remember the tile of the one I read, but the ranger had a bow that doubled as a quarterstaff, there was a zombie shambling around with arms stretched out in front, yet able to outrun the ranger, and one swimming character was described as “wheeling his arms like a robot” or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/28 "2003-04-30T05:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zanshin \* > \*\*Druss versus Waylander… now that’d be a neat matchup. > Nah. Waylander would fire his double crossbow, Druss would eat both bolts (with some fava beans and a nice Chianti) and would then make kibble out of Waylander. 😃 \*\* Yay! Another fan! I have to agree. That double crossbow is badass, but Druss has Snaga, which has a demon bound in it, for chrissakes! And yes, I know what happens re: Snaga/Demon, but I like to pretend it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/29 "2003-04-30T07:02:35Z")
**Max Von Sydow** in _Three Days of the Condor_ He plays a quiet, unassuming man who paints figurines for stress relief, and kills people. Shoots them in the head while chatting with them, and doesn’t even pause in his sentence. He wiped out an entire CIA office, and shot a woman face-to-face from three feet away after she stopped and said, “I won’t scream”. His reply: “I know you won’t.”. Bam. Through the context of the story, it’s clear that he’s killed hundreds of people. And no one knows him. He’s faceless. Blends into any crowd. Keeps a low profile. Drives a compact sedan. That’s an assassin. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/30 "2003-04-30T07:31:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > **Max Von Sydow in _Three Days of the Condor_.** I had forgotten him, but yep, he gets my vote. He’s utterly cool. Just slides in and out, never at serious risk. And the speech he makes to Robert Redford at the end, about not aligning to any side and not having to bother about morals, that must be the essence of anyone who kills for a living. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/31 "2003-04-30T07:43:00Z")
While not officially classified as an assassin, as in a murderer for hire (though he was a mercenary), my vote goes with Elric of Melnibone (from Michael Moorcock’s “Elric Saga”). He had no peers among mortals, and even the Gods fell before him and his demonic sword Stormbringer. As far as non-cosmic beings goes, I’d vote for Artemis Entreri too. Cold, calculating, and connected. ---
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/32 "2003-04-30T08:04:28Z")
Elric and his damn soul-stealing sword, who could stand against that? Maybe [Agent 47](http://www.hitman2.com/) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Zanshin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e274bd/32.png) [@Zanshin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanshin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/33 "2003-04-30T13:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > \*\*Yay! Another fan! > > I have to agree. That double crossbow is badass, but Druss has Snaga, which has a demon bound in it, for chrissakes! And yes, I know what happens re: Snaga/Demon, but I like to pretend it didn’t. \*\* Has a WHAT bound in it? That’s what I get for not having all the Druss books (I’m missing one). Great. Now I have to run to Borders on my lunch hour and buy it. Thanks a lot. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/34 "2003-04-30T13:49:02Z")
I’m bitterly disappointed in all of you. Itto Ogami, the Baby-Cart Wolf, (From Lone Wolf and Cub) is clearly the greatest assassin of all time and all genres. For 500 ryo, he’ll take care of your little problem, including all the loose ends you were too ashamed to tell him about, and he’ll leave you with advice that will make whatever few survivors that are left in the area better people. Armed only with a single sword, two collapsible naginatas, a baby cart containing several unlikely multiple-fire guns, 42,000 Ryo worth of grenades, and a three year old, he effectively takes down the entire Tokugawa government. Other swordsmen, the entire Kurakowa ninja clan, gunmen, several different divisions of the shogun’s personal guard, the entire militaries of two whole han, one fully decked out in armor and mounted, the entire deep-cover intelligence department, the shogun’s poisoner, an army of drug addicted prostitutes . . . nothing can stop him. Close second: Makoto Shishio, from Ruroni Kenshin. The last of the Tokugawa era hito-kiri. While we rarely see him in action, he was so good at his job that only a few people ever learned of his existence. Anyone who can be shot in the forehead, covered with oil, and burned without even slowing down, and THEN THANK the people who did it to him is tops in my book. Half his own team wants to kill him, but they work for him anyway. Why? Because he’s just that damn cool. The flesh of the weak is food for the strong. Don’t feel bad for him. He’s currently ruling Hell. Pity we never got to see his final attack, though. For a more subtle approach, FitzChivalry Farseer, from Robyn Hobb’s Assassin series. Better with poisons and drugs than edged weapons, he still pretty much gets the job done, and with at least six times the bitterness and self-loathing of any other assassin. Probably the agent of choice if you need someone to solve an actual problem, not just bump an arbitrary someone off. And he started up the current ‘agent/assassin’ trend in fantasy novels. That’s got to be worth something. Now if only he could assassinate that awful Liveship Traders series of followup books . . . If we can stretch the definition of assassin to include Elric, we can certainly squeeze in government agent and hatchetman Seito Hajame, (I refuse to put in that damn extra ‘h’) again from Kenshin. None of that pansy hiding in shadows or sneaking around for him, he prefers to just walk up to whoever’s causing the problem, and use his final attack on them until they stop moving. Surprisingly effective, actually, and skipping right to the Gatotsu saves a LOT of time. On the downside, Aku, Soku, Zan, (Sin Swift Slay) was apparently NOT the Shinsengumi’s actual motto, it was just something Watsuki made up. Should have known. Reality is never that cool . . . – ‘I know someplace even safer than Shanghai. It’s called Hell.’ ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/35 "2003-04-30T14:52:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Murcielago \* > Elric and his damn soul-stealing sword, who could stand against that? Hey, Vlad has a soul-eating weapon, too–and it’s a lot more polite than Elric’s. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/36 "2003-04-30T16:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zanshin \* > \*\*Has a WHAT bound in it? That’s what I get for not having all the Druss books (I’m missing one). > > Great. Now I have to run to Borders on my lunch hour and buy it. Thanks a lot. 😃 \*\* There’s a new one out called “White Wolf” that’s very good, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/37 "2003-04-30T16:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Murcielago \* > \*\*Elric and his damn soul-stealing sword, who could stand against that? > > Maybe [Agent 47](http://www.hitman2.com/) :eek: \*\* Druss could. Druss would grab the sword, eat it, down a flagon of wine, then cleave Elric in two with Snaga while Elric was still moping about being cut in half. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/38 "2003-04-30T19:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > Druss could. Druss would grab the sword, eat it, down a flagon of wine, then cleave Elric in two with Snaga while Elric was still moping about being cut in half. I’m not familiar with Druss, but I do know that Elric has one thing going for him. Destiny. He’s fated to accomplish a singular goal and he cannot be stopped from doing so. If he were stopped somehow, fate would dictate that he, through some means, be reinstated so that his ultimate goal be completed successfully. He isn’t just Elric, sorcerer extraordinaire and wielder of one of the deadliest weapons in the multiverse, but an incarnation of all the Eternal Champions. His premature and permanent death could very well mean the death of Corum and Hawkmoon and Erekose, etc., as well as Jerry Cornelious and Moonglum and all of the Companion to Champion’s various incarnations. These events would lead to terrible unforeseen and dire consequences. If the Balance’s primary (and seemingly only) source of enforcement were banished, Chaos and Law would be held unchecked on every plane, and well, that would just suck. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/39 "2003-04-30T20:54:06Z")
All you would-be Michael Moorcock fans, hmmmph. Elric was by no means the greates form of the Eternal Champion. And Jerry Cornelius really was an assassin. Jerry ia also IMHO the nearest in form and action to his end of time self. Jerry also had most understanding of travelling through the infinite spheres. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921/40 "2003-04-30T21:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless \* > All you would-be Michael Moorcock fans, hmmmph. Elric was by no means the greates form of the Eternal Champion. And Jerry Cornelius really was an assassin. Jerry ia also IMHO the nearest in form and action to his end of time self. Jerry also had most understanding of travelling through the infinite spheres. Perhaps not the greatest, but the nearest to an assassin of them all, which is the debate here. The thing about JC is that he’s just a Companion. He’s held more strictly to the rules of the Balance than the Champions, which is why he’s afforded more understanding of how the multiverse works. His job is to guide the Champions, and do odd jobs here and there to balance things out. He could never slay someone purely for profit unless it was necessary to the Balance’s plan, therefore his consideration as the baddest assassin, despite his vast skill, is unarguable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-assassin-is-baddest/171921.md?page=3)