# Which battles in world history can be remembered as much/more for use of a new or unique weapon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700 "2013-04-03T03:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/81 "2013-04-04T08:46:03Z")
> [@David\_H\_Singanas](#): > > I believe the OP specified use in battle. This infers recorded battle and a sortie or > deployment is not a battle. Therefore Hannibal would have the first battle > with the elephant weapon. What were the first recorded battles for the use > of the crossbow, Greek fire, and the cannon ? Errrr, elephants are recorded to have been employed against Alexander the Greats Army in the sub continent. More than a century before Hannibal. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/82 "2013-04-05T03:29:58Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Battle of Britain-Radar > > WW2 Battle of the Atlantic-Cryptography/codebreaking (US government considers cryptography a munition for export purposes) > > Midway-Kamikaze aircraft. > > Gulf War I- Laser guided bombs. Laser guided weapons were used in the latter stages of the Vietnam war. Designed to destroy both the Paul Doumer and Than ho bridges. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/83 "2013-04-05T03:42:03Z")
OP here. Forget I said battle. Rather than have this devolve pleasurably into a chain of first major weapon uses, maybe let’s stay with: wars or campaigns down to battles where the game changer was hands down one side had something technological the other didn’t. I’m sure cases where sigint is involved are legion, and except for hardcore specialists are not well known, yet clearly fit this criterion. I mean, we know about Enigma and the various spy satellites, but those are just the most spectacular. Perhaps we should allow things that don’t in themselves or by others use go boom, cut, etc. as well. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/84 "2013-04-06T03:55:11Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > There were a number of cases on both sides of pilots choosing to crash their planes into the enemy after their plane was heavily damaged, but it wasn’t until Leyte Gulf that they became planned tactics. Agreed, hence the word _organized_ although \*planned \*might be more appropriate. Got a lot of time on your hands their on the east coast of Taiwan, eh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/85 "2013-04-06T15:58:59Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Agreed, hence the word _organized_ although \*planned \*might be more appropriate. Got a lot of time on your hands their on the east coast of Taiwan, eh? 😉 Actually, I was agreeing with you. Well, spending the time on the Dope that should be spent studying Chinese, but let me decompress a bit. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/86 "2013-04-07T14:56:30Z")
In April, 1962 the Union Army first used the rifled cannon (as compared to the smooth bored cannon in use for centuries) against a brick fortification at the Battle of Fort Pulaski, GA, and the increased range and accuracy of the bombardment made traditional coasted defense techniques basically obsolete. The Parrott Rifle style had been in development for three years, but this was the first combat deployment. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/87 "2013-04-07T16:27:23Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > In April, 1962 the Union Army first used the rifled cannon (as compared to the smooth bored cannon in use for centuries) against a brick fortification at the Battle of Fort Pulaski, GA, and the increased range and accuracy of the bombardment made traditional coasted defense techniques basically obsolete. The Parrott Rifle style had been in development for three years, but this was the first combat deployment. 1962? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/88 "2013-04-07T16:32:51Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > [nitpick] > Hebrew vs. Philistine > [/nitpick] > That’s the battle per se. Also probably fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/89 "2013-04-07T18:31:08Z")
Also, whether fiction or not, it’s not even the first account of slingers in the Bible. The book of Judges talks about a corps of elite left handed slingers from the tribe of Benjamin during their war with the other tribes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/90 "2013-04-07T18:57:49Z")
The US Civil War’s Battle of the Crater seems pretty unique and it’s even sort of named after the “weapon”. > **[Battle of the Crater](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Crater)** > > Elements of the Army of Northern Virginia > The Battle of the Crater took place during the American Civil War, part of the Siege of Petersburg. It occurred on Saturday, July 30, 1864, between the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia, commanded by General Robert E. Lee, and the Union Army of the Potomac, commanded by Major General George G. Meade (under the direct supervision of the general-in-chief, Lieutenant General Ulysses S. Grant). > After weeks of preparation, on July 30 Union forces expl... Union troops spent weeks constructing a mine under Confederate lines, packed it with explosives, then set it off, dropping that section of the line into a crater. Using explosives wasn’t unique and I’m pretty sure that using tunnels wasn’t unique but the combination may have been. It didn’t work too well. > [@](#): > > After weeks of preparation, on July 30 the Federals exploded a mine in Maj. Gen. Ambrose E. Burnside’s IX Corps sector, blowing a gap in the Confederate defenses of Petersburg, Virginia. From this propitious beginning, everything deteriorated rapidly for the Union attackers. Unit after unit charged into and around the crater, where soldiers milled in confusion. Grant considered the assault “the saddest affair I have witnessed in the war.” The Confederates quickly recovered and launched several counterattacks led by Brig. Gen. William Mahone. The breach was sealed off, and the Federals were repulsed with severe casualties. Brig. Gen. Edward Ferrero’s division of black soldiers was badly mauled. This may have been Grant’s best chance to end the Siege of Petersburg. Instead, the soldiers settled in for another eight months of trench warfare. Burnside was relieved of command for the last time for his role in the debacle, and he was never again returned to command. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/91 "2013-04-08T04:29:42Z")
In fact, digging tunnels and using them to blow up an unsuspecting enemy is an ancient form of warfare: > **[Tunnel warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_(military))** > > Tunnel warfare involves war being conducted in tunnels and other underground cavities. It often includes the construction of underground facilities (mining or undermining) in order to attack or defend, and the use of existing natural caves and artificial underground facilities for military purposes. Tunnels can be used to undermine fortifications and slip into enemy territory for a surprise attack, while it can strengthen a defense by creating the possibility of ambush, counterattack and the abil... A prominent example would be the 2nd siege of Vienna in 1683 in which the defenders employed “counter-digging” as a defensive measure. The “mineurs” were an elite force in a number of armies, not only the Turkish. ---
**Author:** ![XanderCrews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ee59a6/32.png) [@XanderCrews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XanderCrews)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/92 "2013-04-08T04:51:46Z")
Ia Drang, first use of Air Assault tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/93 "2013-04-08T05:08:31Z")
Siege of Constantinople, 1204: Poking a guy through a hole in the city walls, having him pop out the other side and start swinging a sword like a madman, somehow resulting in victory. (This actually happened, as recounted by the chronicler Robert de Clari, who’s brother Aleaumes was the first Crusader through into the city. As he was wiggling through the hole, Robert grabbed hold of his foot, only for Aleaumes to kick him off and emerge on the other side.) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/94 "2013-04-08T11:28:39Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > 1962? It was also the first successful teleportation though time of war material. Prior to 1962/1862 only organics had been successfully send back in time. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/95 "2013-04-08T18:53:45Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The US Civil War’s Battle of the Crater seems pretty unique and it’s even sort of named after the “weapon”. > [Battle of the Crater - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Crater) > Union troops spent weeks constructing a mine under Confederate lines, packed it with explosives, then set it off, dropping that section of the line into a crater. > > Using explosives wasn’t unique and I’m pretty sure that using tunnels wasn’t unique but the combination may have been. > > It didn’t work too well. The Battle of the Crater suffered from the same problem as Operation Cobra, a World War II tank offensive opened by the American 8th Air Force drenching German positions with bombs. In both cases, the use of explosives was so overwhelming that not only was the defense temporarily neutralized, _the opposing offense failed to get going_. About the Cobra bombardment, it’s been written: > [@](#): > > German units were devastated by the storm of bombs. The elite Panzer Lehr Division was rendered completely ineffective by the bombing. Tanks were overturned, positions were destroyed and surviving personnel were often stunned into incoherence. Command and control largely broke down, and two-thirds of the division’s personnel were casualties. but the problem was, the ground offensive took too long to get started, allowing the Germans time to recover (the German army was specifically trained to recover quickly from tactical crises). Same issue marred the Crater battle (although there were plenty of other things going wrong with that sad affair). Union forces stood gawping at the titanic hole blown in the Confederate trenches, and took many minutes to begin crossing no-man’s-land, allowing the Confederates to bring up reserves and plug the gap. Moral of the story: Massive shock and awe can buy you a short grace period. Don’t waste it. And hanging way back to avoid the possibility of friendly fire just means the certainty of unfriendly fire. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/96 "2013-04-08T19:07:30Z")
Mongol seige of Caffa, 1346 - first (as far as I know) and to date most devistatingly effective use of biological weapons in missiles. I know that putting dead bodies in wells and the like has been used from time immemorial, but I don’t know if using diseased bodies in catapults happened before - though I’d be surprised if no-one had done it previously, this is certainly the battle best (and in fact, only) known because of the use of this weapon - in that, if the Mongols had not used this weapon, no-one today would remember the seige of Caffa. It is credited with spreading the Black Death to Europe (though of course it may have spread anyway). If so, it can indirectly take credit for a bigger death toal than any other weapon ever used in a single battle! 😉 > **[404 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/404.html?aspxerrorpath=%2Feid%2Farticle%2F8%2F9%2F01-0536_article)** From the original account: > [@](#): > > “Oh God! See how the heathen Tartar races, pouring together from all sides, suddenly invested the city of Caffa and besieged the trapped Christians there for almost three years. There, hemmed in by an immense army, they could hardly draw breath, although food could be shipped in, which offered them some hope. But behold, the whole army was affected by a disease which overran the Tartars and killed thousands upon thousands every day. It was as though arrows were raining down from heaven to strike and crush the Tartars’ arrogance. All medical advice and attention was useless; the Tartars died as soon as the signs of disease appeared on their bodies: swellings in the armpit or groin caused by coagulating humours, followed by a putrid fever. > > “The dying Tartars, stunned and stupefied by the immensity of the disaster brought about by the disease, and realizing that they had no hope of escape, lost interest in the siege. But they ordered corpses to be placed in catapults1 and lobbed into the city in the hope that the intolerable stench would kill everyone inside.2 What seemed like mountains of dead were thrown into the city, and the Christians could not hide or flee or escape from them, although they dumped as many of the bodies as they could in the sea. And soon the rotting corpses tainted the air and poisoned the water supply, and the stench was so overwhelming that hardly one in several thousand was in a position to flee the remains of the Tartar army. Moreover one infected man could carry the poison to others, and infect people and places with the disease by look alone. No one knew, or could discover, a means of defense. > > “Thus almost everyone who had been in the East, or in the regions to the south and north, fell victim to sudden death after contracting this pestilential disease, as if struck by a lethal arrow which raised a tumor on their bodies. The scale of the mortality and the form which it took persuaded those who lived, weeping and lamenting, through the bitter events of 1346 to 1348—the Chinese, Indians, Persians, Medes, Kurds, Armenians, Cilicians, Georgians, Mesopotamians, Nubians, Ethiopians, Turks, Egyptians, Arabs, Saracens and Greeks (for almost all the East has been affected)—that the last judgement had come. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/97 "2013-04-08T23:28:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Somme, WWI: tanks Although you are correct (and contrary to popular perceptions) that tanks _en masse_ were first used during the Battle of the Somme, said use can hardly be what that battle is best known for. Unequivocally, and absolutely, the Battle of the Somme is remembered for the slaughter it engendered, commencing as did the battle itself, on [the first day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_day_on_the_Sommehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_day_on_the_Somme) - July 1, 1916. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/98 "2013-04-09T10:45:57Z")
The siege of Alkmaar (1573) was the first time the Dutch successfully defeated an enemy with water: They punched through dikes and the Spanish forces were forced to withdraw. It inspired a complex defence system relying on water and a series of forts, the Dutch water line (hollandse waterlinie en Nieuwe Hollandse Waterlinie). It was obsoleted after Hitler flew his Luftwaffe over it. Of course Mozes did his thing a lot earlier but that wasn’t a war I think. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/99 "2013-04-09T12:23:23Z")
According to the OP’s revised criteria, pretty much the entire Scramble For Africa in the 19th Century worked (for the Europeans) because they had guns and the people who lived there didn’t (or had old, crappy guns and not new, advanced ones like the Europeans had). As Hilaire Belloc once wrote: _Whatever happens, We have got the Maxim Gun And they have not_. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700/100 "2013-04-09T13:31:26Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > The siege of Alkmaar (1573) was the first time the Dutch successfully defeated an enemy with water: > They punched through dikes and the Spanish forces were forced to withdraw. > It inspired a complex defence system relying on water and a series of forts, the Dutch water line (hollandse waterlinie en Nieuwe Hollandse Waterlinie). It was obsoleted after Hitler flew his Luftwaffe over it. > > Of course Mozes did his thing a lot earlier but that wasn’t a war I think. That’s a pretty good one; the Mongols were supposed to have done something similar in attacking Sung China, but offensively (opened the dykes to inundate an enemy city). My own contribution is the Persian attack on Babylon, in which they diverted the river Euphrates to lower the water level at night so as to sneak into the city through the harbour defences (which were weak): this is recorded in Herodotus’ account and of course in the Biblical book of Daniel (the famous “writing on the wall” incident): > **[Belshazzar's feast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_writing_on_the_wall)** > > Belshazzar's feast, or the story of the writing on the wall, chapter 5 in the Book of Daniel, tells how Neo-Babylonian royal Belshazzar holds a great feast and drinks from the vessels that had been looted in the destruction of the First Temple. A hand appears and writes on the wall. The terrified Belshazzar calls for his wise men, but they cannot read the writing. The queen advises him to send for Daniel, renowned for his wisdom. Daniel reminds Belshazzar that his father, Nebuchadnezzar, when he ... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-battles-in-world-history-can-be-remembered-as-much-more-for-use-of-a-new-or-unique-weapon/654700.md?page=6)