# Which bit of you is you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274 "2008-12-30T20:49:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/81 "2009-01-06T01:37:48Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I have a coworker who raises carp. Stupid fish, but big and pretty. When he comes to the pond, they’ll swim up to him because they know him. They’ll swim away from strangers. Nevertheless, fish are not conscious. With respect, to say that fish are not conscious seems ridiculous to me. Fish show fear, they can problem solve and learn how to avoid traps - they can even get out of them. We personally owned a Siamese Fighting Fish a few years ago and my husband always fed him his shrimp. (His name was Samurai, but we all called him Sam.) As it happened, my husband had to go away for a few days to record with his band in a city and I was left to feed Sam. This (according to you) unconscious fish SULKED and would not eat what I offered him. My husband always used a teaspoon and Sam would come and eat the shrimp from the spoon. When I put the spoon where he was used to eating from it, he went to the far corner of his tank and literally SULKED. :rolleyes: He didn’t eat a morsel for the three days my husband was away and it’s not as if I was a stranger to him. He resumed his normal eating pattern when My husband resumed feeding him. Still think fish aren’t conscious? Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/82 "2009-01-06T01:38:36Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I believe in the sanctity of life, IP, so any issue involving it is emotionally charged for me. However, I did not call her neurologists evil, I said, or I thought I said, that the _act_ of murdering her was and is evil. That one I’ll stand by. I do not believe human beings have the the right to take another’s life. I’ll bet that’s popular on this forum, but I’m sleep-typing here, IP. If you want anything coherent from me it’ll have to wait until tommorrow. > > Agape - Jesse. > P.S. I’m ten hour’s drive from the closest bookstore, but I’ll get it from Amazon - hopefully. Thanks again for the thumbsup. A couple of things. I’m not sure where the stories of her crying or reacting to her parents came from. My experience is that many things circulated on the internet that get accepted as true turn out to be incorrect when you check them out. Regardless let’s talk about the sanctity of life. It seems to me believing in the sanctity of life should have something to do with the quality of life and the realistic choices faced in a certain situation. It can be an act of love to let someone go rather than have them linger in body with no chance of recovery. I have some up close and personal experience with this. I can’t understand why people who believe in an afterlife would consider it murder to let someone go and let nature take it’s course. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/83 "2009-01-06T01:41:27Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Still think fish aren’t conscious? Yes. And now I also think that you anthropomorphize fish. Fish do not sulk, regardless of how it appeared to you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/84 "2009-01-06T01:43:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Medical evidence has nothing to do with it. As I said before no one knows for sure, and that is wisdom speaking. Our consciousness or “us” is spiritual and does not follow physical laws. Anything is possible with spirit. I know you don’t believe this, but it is true nevertheless. What we believe means nothing, only was is, is important. > > People have lived normal lives before with little brain. > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1930510020070720](http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1930510020070720) pretty amazing ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/85 "2009-01-06T01:45:41Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > Please provide evidence stronger than her lawyer’s testimony that this actually happened. > > Please provide a cite for this. You haven’t said what sort of response, which is ridiculously important in assessing consciousness. > > Responsiveness is a huge category. Do you mean heart rate, perhaps? Autonomic arousal can operate quite independently of consciousness. The brain can have an automatic emotional association to voice–say, the particular timbre and flow of her ex-husband’s–which causes this arousal. In fully functioning people this can and regularly does happen completely outside of consciousness. > > A farm goat may recognize and respond to stimulus, but we would never say it possesses human consciousness. Greetings IP! I have no citation other than the videos we all watched many times on TV. Even the Pope commented on them several times, so we know that the broadcasts did reach Rome. I was asked for my opinion and I’ve given it. The consciousness of fish and goats has little to do with Terry Shiavo and I have no wish to ‘argue’ on their behalf. Agape - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/86 "2009-01-06T01:48:58Z")
You should really rethink your signoff. I have this mental image of someone sitting at her computer with her mouth hanging open in stark surprise every time she reads a new post. Just FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/87 "2009-01-06T01:53:45Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Yes. And now I also think that you anthropomorphize fish. Fish do not sulk, regardless of how it appeared to you. Sorry, grasshopper, 😉 but regardless of what you yourself think - Sam SULKED! My grandmother’s dog used to sulk every day when she went to work. Animals aren’t stupid or unconscious. Even the aforementioned carp were cognizant enough to differentiate between the human who fed them and strangers. I don’t think we all have our logic caps on tonight. Of course, that’s just my opinion. Cheers - Jesse ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/88 "2009-01-06T01:58:02Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > You should really rethink your signoff. I have this mental image of someone sitting at her computer with her mouth hanging open in stark surprise every time she reads a new post. Just FYI. And just FYI, agape means principled love. I think I’ll keep it, not that the posts here don’t evoke that response in me sometimes. 😃 - Jess. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/89 "2009-01-06T02:00:19Z")
Understood, but to a native English speaker it doesn’t read as you intend. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/90 "2009-01-06T02:42:37Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Understood, but to a native English speaker it doesn’t read as you intend. If it offends you, Q.E.D., then I shall be happy to remove it. If, OTOH, it provides you with a good laugh…? Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/91 "2009-01-06T02:48:01Z")
Nothing offends me. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/92 "2009-01-06T02:59:53Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Nothing offends me. Carry on. Than you have achieved something for which I strive. I can honestly say that little offends me, but not quite nothing - yet. Still growing and learning - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Influential\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Influential\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Influential_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/93 "2009-01-06T03:16:45Z")
**Jesse** , you sound like a nice enough person, but GD is for people who are willing to change their minds. “That’s my opinion” is best reserved for IMHO, not GD. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/94 "2009-01-06T03:26:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’d ask you for a cite for this, but you’d probably just link to your homepage and the story of the bad dream you had one time, so, skipping ahead, I’ll say this is nonsense. > > And we _know_ it’s true because you’re totally unable to prove it. > > I know. > However you’re comparing unlike cases here, since a small brain caused by a condition that might have set in gradually is not the same as a brain that became small due to severe injury. Not necessary to prove it, I experienced it. As for your misinterpretation of my experience I can only say, you weren’t there, you couldn’t know anything about it. You are just engaged in wishful thinking, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/95 "2009-01-06T03:39:48Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > **Jesse** , you sound like a nice enough person, but GD is for people who are willing to change their minds. “That’s my opinion” is best reserved for IMHO, not GD. IP, Ah, quandry time - to whom should I listen? I was roasted for stating anything as ‘fact,’ substantiated or not, and was told I should rather give my opinion. If I were a Tylenol-taking person… 😕 Love - Jess. Edited to add: I do change my mind, or at least my perspective, and that’s why I spend time on forums like this one. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/96 "2009-01-06T04:19:12Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Ah, quandry time - to whom should I listen? I was roasted for stating anything as ‘fact,’ substantiated or not, and was told I should rather give my opinion. You weren’t roasted, you were asked to give evidence for unsubstantiated statements, and you failed to. Um, I’m not sure I’ve seen a substantiated one from you actually. That’s the issue. This is a debate forum, posting ‘That’s my opinion’, and then defending it as the truth doesn’t really work here. If you have an opinion or belief, fine, just don’t try to pass it off as anything else. If you want to argue fact, then you’re going to have to come up with more than ‘That’s my opinion’ or your argument won’t hold any weight. When people ask for cites, they aren’t being mean or calling you a liar, they’re actually asking for you to back up your assertion with something so we can determine if your argument is valid. Otherwise, the only basis we have for doing so is ‘Jesse Leigh said it’. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/97 "2009-01-06T05:35:32Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > IP, > > Ah, quandry time - to whom should I listen? I was roasted for stating anything as ‘fact,’ substantiated or not, and was told I should rather give my opinion. > > If I were a Tylenol-taking person… 😕 > > Love - Jess. > > Edited to add: I do change my mind, or at least my perspective, and that’s why I spend time on forums like this one. Just so you know. Nothing wrong with opinions in GD if you’re willing to acknowledge them as such. If you present something as factual the tradition is that you provide some evidence that it’s true if someone asks for a cite. An article or something. The source is considered. Scholastic sources are better than someone’s blog. Of course you can choose to not provide a cite. Some do. If that’s the case then everything you say gets relegated to the opinion category. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/98 "2009-01-06T09:20:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Nothing wrong with opinions in GD if you’re willing to acknowledge them as such. If you present something as factual the tradition is that you provide some evidence that it’s true if someone asks for a cite. An article or something. The source is considered. Scholastic sources are better than someone’s blog. > > Of course you can choose to not provide a cite. Some do. If that’s the case then everything you say gets relegated to the opinion category. Greetings Cosmosdan! Yes, I know, thank you. I endeavor to provide links to source material when I state something as fact. (I ask the people on my own forum to do the same.) Not every link I’ve provided has satisfied all, but… such is the nature of debate since deciding who is an authority on any given subject is oftentimes a matter of perspective and opinion - unfortunately. Nice to talk with you again. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/99 "2009-01-06T13:52:42Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Greetings IP! > > I have no citation other than the videos we all watched many times on TV. Even the Pope commented on them several times, so we know that the broadcasts did reach Rome. > > I was asked for my opinion and I’ve given it. The consciousness of fish and goats has little to do with Terry Shiavo and I have no wish to ‘argue’ on their behalf. > > Agape - Jesse. Hi Jesse I have been posting here for years, and never seen anyone change their mind about anything. It is also true that most posters never provide a cite. I agree with your posts, all life is sacred, and Terry had a loving family ready, willing, and able to care for her with no expense to her cheating husband. The decision was most unfortunate for all, no one won in the end. This case will remain as a “what not to do” example for many years. I know that life goes on after death, but it is not our judgement to take another’s life. Keep up the good posting. By the way “agape” is a word understood by all. At least all the people I know. I wouldn’t stop using it on the word of a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274/100 "2009-01-06T14:52:09Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > I have no citation other than the videos we all watched many times on TV. Even the Pope commented on them several times, so we know that the broadcasts did reach Rome. Everybody knows the videos existed, the question is what the videos meant. Your assertions that they prove she was conscious would be more credible if you backed them up. I don’t remember any video where she cried on being told her tube was going to be removed. I do remember a tape where she supposedly tracked a balloon with her eyes, even though postmortem testing of her brain showed she was blind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-bit-of-you-is-you/479274.md?page=6)