# Which came first chicken or the egg? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788 "2001-08-17T19:17:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/1 "2001-08-17T19:17:17Z")
So which did come first the chicken or the egg? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/2 "2001-08-17T19:21:47Z")
Oh no – another creation/evolution debate!! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/3 "2001-08-17T19:23:11Z")
Why do we park on aggrys but drive on rocks so big God can’t lift them? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/4 "2001-08-17T19:24:12Z")
oh, and “aglet.” ---
**Author:** ![Tabeitha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b3f665/32.png) [@Tabeitha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabeitha)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/5 "2001-08-17T19:29:41Z")
Well of course the chicken came first, the egg came a few months later. Damn, didn’t anyone else have barnyard biology? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/6 "2001-08-17T19:32:56Z")
O.K., banal question, but I’ll bite. The egg. What we consider as the modern chicken had to evolve from another bird - call this a “protochicken”. At some point during this evolution a protochicken gave rise to the first chicken. This happened when the offspring differed from the parent enough to be considered chickens rather than protochickens. These offspring began their lives as eggs. Thus, the egg came first. Tracer is right, this in actuality is a very old evolution vs. creation question. I wouldn’t have posted at all except for the fact that I am greatly amused by the word “protochicken”. No, I don’t know why. -Beeblebrox * * * “In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/7 "2001-08-17T19:47:36Z")
A chicken and egg were laying in bed. The egg gazes over at the chicken, takes a long drag on a cigarette and says: “Well, I guess that answers that question.” ---
**Author:** ![VileOrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9e8a1a/32.png) [@VileOrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VileOrb)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/8 "2001-08-17T19:48:46Z")
protochicken… aaaahaaahhaaa stop stop you’re killing me proto… chicken… heheheheheheee stop I can’t breathe, pant pant… perrrrrotochicken… hee hee hooo haaaaaaaaaggghhhh ---
**Author:** ![caircair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@caircair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caircair)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/9 "2001-08-17T19:51:26Z")
Actually, Beeblebrox is right. My cousin (a Biology teacher) answered the question thusly: The Egg would have had to carry the mutation that turned the previous bird into what we call a “chicken”. Therefore, the egg, being the first stage in the “chicken’s” development, came first. ---
**Author:** ![TheNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@TheNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheNerd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/10 "2001-08-17T19:51:52Z")
Fish lay eggs. Insects lay eggs. Dinosaurs laid eggs. There were all around long before the first chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/11 "2001-08-17T19:54:11Z")
Yep, that’s proved by paleontologry. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/12 "2001-08-17T20:38:42Z")
VileOrb wrote: > [@](#): > > protochicken… aaaahaaahhaaa stop stop you’re killing me > proto… chicken… heheheheheheee stop I can’t breathe, pant pant… I’m kinda partial to “ur-chicken” or “eochicken” myself. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/13 "2001-08-17T20:40:55Z")
[Cecil’s column](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_218.html) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/14 "2001-08-17T20:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m kinda partial to “ur-chicken” or “eochicken” myself. Aw, c’mon Tracer. What about “überchicken?” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/15 "2001-08-17T22:58:54Z")
Consider the chart below. Each line represents a meta-generation. A meta-generation is the number of generations it takes for a change in DNA to spread throughout a breeding population. A meta-generation naturally consists of many minor generations, those generations in which a DNA change has not yet completely spread throughout the breeding population. Let us say that B represents the number of DNA changes which would have to accumulate before a daughter species (the chicken) could be said to have split off from a mother species (the proto-chicken), or the point at which a member of the daughter species would not have been able to interbreed with the mother species. I have aribitrarily set that number at 40. Bear in mind that new DNA changes would probably be arising even before earlier DNA changes had finished spreading through the breeding population. This means that there would be many different combinations of DNA changes in succeeding minor generations. This means of course that each minor generation would be able to interbreed with those minor generations immediately previous to it and following it. So now let’s look at the chart. X represents original DNA, O represents a change in the original DNA: 1–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 2–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXO 3–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOO 4–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOO 5–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOO 6–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOO 7–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOO 8–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOO 9–XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOO 10-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOO 11-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO 12-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOO 13-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOO 14-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOO 15-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 16-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 17-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 18-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 21-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 22-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 24-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 25-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 26-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 27-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 28-XXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 29-XXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 30-XXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 31-XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 32-XXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 33-XXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 34-XXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 35-XXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 36-XXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 37-XXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 38-XXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 39-XXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 40-XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 41-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Now, here is the problem. \* There would have been no single generation in any of the minor generations or the meta-generations when it would not have been able to interbreed with the generations immediately preceding and following it.\* Meta-generations 1-5 would still have been able to interbreed with meta-generations 6-10 (assuming they are not seperated by space and/or time and actually have physical access to each other). In other words, there is no _exact point_ at which the mother species transmutes or splits off into the daughter species. _It is not possible to draw an exact boundary line between the chicken and the proto-chicken._ It’s the old Greek ship problem. Let’s say that we have a Greek war ship. Every few weeks or months, it is necessary to replace a plank here and a plank there, to replace the mast(s) and the ropes, and so on. At what point can you say that the original ship is no longer there? Neither the chicken nor the chicken egg came into existence first. _They came into existence simultaneously._ No applause, please. I will now turn my genius to the problems of world hunger and world peace. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/16 "2001-08-17T23:16:07Z")
[Homer] mmmmm . . . proto-chicken [/Homer] ---
**Author:** ![Zweistein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/54ee81/32.png) [@Zweistein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zweistein)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/17 "2001-08-17T23:46:34Z")
Too easy… You need a chicken to hatch an egg, therefore the Chicken came first, and God saw the Chicken that it was good ---
**Author:** ![Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_A_Tame_Lion)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/18 "2001-08-17T23:52:41Z")
Lonesome Polecat’s post is kind of tardo. The conclusion states that the chicken and the CHICKEN egg came into being simultaneously. But that’s not the question: the question merely says “egg,” not “chicken egg.” Not answering the question asked is the oldest trick in the book. (Well, maybe not the oldest…) Having said that, I don’t think the chart inherently makes the case that egg/chicken appear simultaneously. That first line represents the aforementioned protochicken, right? So what appeared before that? We can reasonably assume that the first line does not represent the first moment of time; something came before that. The so called “mother” species is in fact a daughter or granddaughter species. There was still some egg-laying creature in existence before that. So barring semantic trickery, the answer still stands: egg comes first. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/19 "2001-08-17T23:58:55Z")
andros wrote: > [@](#): > > Aw, c’mon Tracer. What about “überchicken?” _When you find yourself in danger, When you’re threatened by a stranger, When it looks like you will take a licken_ (cluck cluck cluck cluck) _There is someone waiting who Will harry up [sic] and rescue you, Just caaaaaaaaaaaaall UP on Überchicken!_ (buck-aaaack!) I have particularly fond memories of the Super Chicken cartoon show from my youth, because in every episode Fred would say my real-life full name. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788/20 "2001-08-18T02:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*andros wrote: > I have particularly fond memories of the Super Chicken cartoon show from my youth, because in every episode Fred would say my real-life full name. \*\* Your name was Henry Cabot Henhouse III? 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-chicken-or-the-egg/76788.md?page=2)