# Which came first - orange or orange? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 1999, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292 "1999-09-14T12:01:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/1 "1999-09-14T12:01:00Z")
Was the colour orange named after the fruit? Or was the fruit named after the colour? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/2 "1999-09-14T12:51:00Z")
I found this: > [@](#): > > Orange (Eng.); Orange (Fr.); Naranja (Sp.); Arancia (It.) > Interestingly, none of these terms come from the Latin word for orange, citrus aurentium; instead, they all come from the ancient Sanskrit naga ranga, which literally means “fatal indigestion for elephants.” In certain traditions the orange, not the apple, is the fruit responsible for original sin. There was an ancient Malay fable–which made its way into the Sanskrit tongue around the Seventh or Eighth Centuries B.C.–that links the orange to the sin of gluttony and has an elephant as the culprit. Apparently, one day an elephant was passing through the forrest, when he found a tree unknown to him in a clearing, bowed downward by its weight of beautiful, tempting oranges; as a result, the elephant ate so many that he burst. Many years later a man stumbled upon the scene and noticed the fossilized remains of the elephant with many orange trees growing from what had been its stomach. The man then exclaimed, “Amazing! What a naga ranga (fatal indigestion for elephants)!” at this site: [http://www.westegg.com/etymology/](http://www.westegg.com/etymology/) All the dictionaries I consulted had basically the same etymology for the word, without the fancifal story attached (i.e.: Sanskrit (na)ranga = orange tree Under this origin, the fruit is named first, the color is named after the color of the fruit. ---
**Author:** ![ChiefScott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@ChiefScott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChiefScott)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/3 "1999-09-14T13:00:00Z")
The word “orange” is Middle English, from Old French _orenge, orange,_ from Arabic _naranj_, from Persian _narang_, from Sanskrit _naranga_, which means orange or orange tree. The dictionary’s a wonderful thing. You may deduct that since there is an entemologic history for the fruit and none for the color, that the fruit was called orange first. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/4 "1999-09-14T13:39:00Z")
It’s ‘deduce’ not ‘deduct’. 😉 Anyhoo, thanks for clearing that up - wasn’t much of a challenge, really, was it? Okay, next test: How come ‘Having one’s work cut out’ means being given _more_ work, rather than a _reduction_ in work? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/5 "1999-09-14T16:19:00Z")
To anyone who ever worked in a garment factory, it’s obvious. Someone’s cut a zillion pieces of cloth out of the original bolts, and they’re all in your “in basket” to be sewn together into shirts. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/6 "1999-09-14T16:23:00Z")
By the way, my Latin dictionary has no word for orange (the color). The color was probably named after the fruit. Don’t be surprised. Different languages have different notions of the spectrum, and “orange” is usually one of the last colors to get a word. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/7 "1999-09-14T19:16:00Z")
What would you guys do without me? [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_344a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_344a.html) “The noun preceded the adjective” ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/8 "1999-09-14T19:22:00Z")
Actually, I mean, what would you do with out Cecil and me to find links to his archive. [backing out of thread bowing repeatedly to the Cecil shrine…] ---
**Author:** ![fraochag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@fraochag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fraochag)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/9 "1999-09-14T20:49:00Z")
See Berlin and Kay, Basic Color Terms. Any word with the same name as an object of that name is morphologically suspect and unlikely to be a basic colour term. Think of violet, rose, and of course orange. Modern Irish still doesn’t have a word for the colour orange (they use bui: ‘yellow’), but the fruit is ora:iste. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/10 "1999-09-14T21:48:00Z")
So where does the traditional ruling house of the Netherlands get its name from? The fruit or the color? And while we’re at it, why isn’t there an Orange Curacao? ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 1999, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/11 "1999-09-14T23:26:00Z")
## I recall a similar discussion elsewhere, quite a few years ago, in which somebody cited a medieval document that described “that colour between red and yellow”. Sorry, no reference. ☹ Bob the Random Expert “If we don’t have the answer, we’ll make one up.” ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/12 "1999-09-15T00:47:00Z")
So I think we can dismiss the elephant theory. All in favour say ‘aye!’ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/13 "1999-09-15T01:40:00Z")
GuanoLad wrote: > [@](#): > > It’s ‘deduce’ not ‘deduct’. Not when you’re fuguring your income taxes, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/14 "1999-09-15T02:03:00Z")
Well, I don’t see that anybody’s proved the orange thing, but, of course, I’d put my money on the fruit’s having come first. My dictionary [Amer Heritage, 2nd Coll Ed, 1982] says etymologically: [ME \< OFr. \< Ar. _naranj_ \< Pers. _narang_ \< Skt. _narangah_], where all the first 'a’s have macrons and the ‘h’ has a dot under it (to show voicing?). The above, however, doesn’t actually specify whether the various words were used for the fruit, the color or both. ChiefScott: > [@](#): > > The dictionary’s a wonderful thing. But can you eat it (assuming you’re not a bookworm)? (Doesn’t even seem to help you “deduct” ‘etymology’ is different from “entemology”/‘entomology’. OK, so there’re bugs in your keyboard.). fraochag: > [@](#): > > Modern Irish still doesn’t have a word for the colour orange. . . Probably because the Irish just plain don’t wanta see any Orangemen around. RHYMES WITH ORANGE: I once send a limerick in to a Web page that used rhymes for ‘orange’. I can’t find it now, but this guy stole one of my rhyming word combos for his very sad limerick: [http://home.pacifier.com/~hopeless/poetry2.html](http://home.pacifier.com/~hopeless/poetry2.html) ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/15 "1999-09-15T02:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > But can you eat it. . . This was supposed to be, of course: ‘But can’t you eat it. . .’ Ray ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/16 "1999-09-15T03:09:00Z")
Strike that last post of mine. (Not sure what I ate. . .drank or snorted.) Ray ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/17 "1999-09-15T05:38:00Z")
The House of Orange, of William of Orange fame, is named for the city in Southern France I believe. I would assume that the area got its name because they grew oranges in that part of France (it’s near the Mediterranean.) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/18 "1999-09-15T11:31:00Z")
The counts of Nassau-Dillenburg aquired the area of SE France known as the principality of Orange when Hendrik III married Claudia of Chalon and Orange in 1515. The Nassau counts had previously aquired land in the area now known as the Netherlands by marriage in about 1400. The lands in France were subsequently lost, but the name remained. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fraochag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@fraochag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fraochag)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/19 "1999-09-15T13:54:00Z")
Orangemen are bui: in Irish, as is the ‘tan’ of the Black and Tans. Of course, the ‘Orange’ is from King Billy (William of Nassau). If you find that reference again, rjk, I’d really like to see it. The American Heritage Dictionary’s IE roots are quite reliable–I know the linguist who actually did the work, as well as the one whose name is on it. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292/20 "1999-09-15T23:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > ## Member posted 09-14-1999 06:26 PM > > I recall a similar discussion elsewhere, quite a few years ago, in which somebody cited a medieval document that described “that colour between red and yellow”. Sorry, no reference. I wasn’t part of that discussion, but Martin Gardner says: > [@](#): > > …Chaucer…referred twice in the _Canterbury Tales_ to a shade “bitwixe yelow and reed” This is in the article “Mathematics and the Folkways” in Gardner’s collection of essays _The Night Is Large_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-came-first-orange-or-orange/3292.md?page=2)