# Which color lightsaber do you choose, average Jedi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478 "2012-04-11T17:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/61 "2012-04-13T14:15:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Right - although for some reason, the Battle Droids weren’t firing grenades at the Jedi. Possibly because it’s common knowledge in the SW universe that firing grenades at Jedi is a bad idea? 😃 How many times in the movies did we see Jedi deflecting blaster bolts back at the shooter? Yet people and droids keep on trying. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/62 "2012-04-13T14:34:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Technically blasters aren’t “lasers”. They are bolts of high energy plasma traveling at sub-light velocities. I know. I wasn’t going to pick that particular nit, as it’s a distraction, and for all practical purposes in _this_ discussion, a distinction without a difference. > [@Miller](#): > > I was taking it as a given that the real world explanation is that the people making the films had no interest in portraying realistic battlefield tactics. I’m more interested in in-universe explanations. The second flows from the first. My suspension of disbelief fails whenever I see overwrought explanations for the simplest things. > [@Miller](#): > > And I think it’s notable that, in-universe, nobody ever tries to kill a Jedi with a grenade, despite the fact that two of the six films take place during a war where the Jedi are a significant faction. Speaking strictly in-universe, there are four possible reasons for that: > > 1. No one in this universe ever invented a grenade. We both agree that this is absurd. > > 2. Every one fighting a Jedi is an idiot, and never thought to try this fairly obvious tactic. Still absurd, but given how poorly written the villains are in the prequels, not entirely out of the question. > > 3. Tons and tons of Jedi get killed by grenades, it just all happens off screen, and is never mentioned or addressed by any of the surviving Jedi. > > 4. Trying to kill a Jedi with a grenade is so clearly suicidal that everyone fighting them knows not to do it. > > My money’s on number four, with number two close behind. That’s all fine-and-dandy, and very reasonably reasoned. But… It opens the door to a frightening level of Jedi ability that we simply never, ever see on-screen. > [@Miller](#): > > Eh. We only ever see the Jedi deal with one threat in the films. That threat happens to be the Sith, but there’s absolutely no reason to assume that the Sith are the only threat that can ever get (and has ever gotten) the Jedi off their asses. Seems unlikely that they’d still be viewed as an important part of the Republic if the only thing they ever helped out with was killing Sith, particularly given that everyone thought the Sith were extinct for centuries in _Phantom_. And we also rarely see police forces figting crime, or the U.S. Military fighting. We see and hear about it on the news, but rarely witness it ourselves. Doesn’t mean they aren’t on the job. Kenobi’s line that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice for 1,000 generations seriously implies that there are other threats (perhaps rogue states, pirate groups, other forms of organized crime, etc.), and we do see the Jedi deal with one of them (potential war with the Trade Fed.). I never said the Jedi were just sitting around doing nothing until the Sith threat re-emerged and they then “got off of their asses;” I said it was the only on-screen, in-Universe threat that made them “collectively shit themselves,” as it was only the Sith that posed a strategic, institutional threat to the Jedi. > [@Miller](#): > > Actually, the delivery is very important. Blaster bolts explode, but they’re also energy projectiles, and therefore, probably not subject to telekinesis. A grenade is a physical object. If a Jedi can grab one with telekinesis, then it doesn’t matter how many it can fire in a minute: he can stop the first one while it’s still in the tube and kill the gunner. He can’t do that with a blaster bolt, and so has to fall back on deflecting them with his lightsaber. How much kinetic energy can a Jedi TK? And how far? Again, no on-screen (thus in-universe) evidence of any Jedi’s or Sith’s ability to TK battlefield ordnance hundreds, perhaps (literally!) thousands of meters away. A Mk 19 has a muzzle velocity of 240 m/s. That’s 864 km/h, or about 535 mi/h. That’s relatively slow compared to say a 9mm or .40&W bullet. It’s a large, heavy projectile (~ 0.5 kilo, or 1 pound) that does follow a reltively high-arc trajectory (not mortar levels of arc, but higher than a regular bullet), and terminal ballistics, while not necessary to compute for the effect of the round (it’s a flying bomb), are a factor in determining if a Force-user can TK “catch” or “deflect” them. Let’s say it’s only going about 150 m/s at 1,500m. That still a half-kilo object travelling at 540 km/h, or about 335 mi/h. But you keep saying “Stop it in the barrel.” It has the greatest “impulse” behind it at that point, and thus, I would think it would be even harder to stop it there that in flight. But can they TK that much kinetic energy? If so, how far away can they engage an incoming projectile? Can they stop a battery fire 155mm artillery barrage? Can they stop a 120mm tank round in flight? Stop it in the barrel when it has the greatest specific impule behind it? We do see the Jedi do some pretty impressive stuff with TK abilities. Yoda lifts an X-Wing out of a muddy bog, flys it a few dozen meters to dry land, and gently sets it down. But he had to concentrate to do it, and it took him ~30 seconds to do it start-to-finish. Vader ripped stuff off of a wall, and picked up multiple objects, and flew them (slowly) at Luke on Bespin. Again, short range, and relatively low KE values, comparatively speaking. Nothing we see suggests that they routinely have the power levels necessary to stop battlefield ordnance in flight, or are even aware of it. > [@Miller](#): > > Palpatine didn’t have that much direct control over the course of the war. He didn’t control the Trade Federation, he simply manipulated them into fighting the Republic. The Trade Federation was fighting the Jedi as hard as they could. Were you watching the same movies? “Lord Sidious” was directing the Separitists! He told them when and where to attack on several occasions. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, we do know that they can TK guns out of people’s hands: we see Vader do it to Han in _Empire_. And we know they can use telekinesis to knock over opponents, although the only time they do it on Geonosis is when one of the Jedi use it to immobilize C-3PO. (I’m pretty sure we see Obi Wan and Qui Gonn knock over a couple squads of droids with Force pushes in _Phantom Menace_, but I may be misremembering.) And Vader had every advantage going into that confrontation. I’m sure he knew everything Imperial Intelligence could dig up on Han, as well as whatever Boba Fett could tell him. He knew exactly when and where Han was going to appear, what he was armed with, and had a pretty good idea how he would react. _Vader stacked the deck in his favor as much as possible without tipping his hand._ Can’t say as I blame him. Now put Vader on a Clone War battlefield, with thousands of Clone Troopers battling thousands of battle droids. There’s [artillery pieces](http://www.filmedge.net/clone/Zillo/SPHA_800.jpg) blasting Separatist ships out of the sky. There’s [AAT’s](http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/d/dc/AAT.jpg) and [Assault Ship’s](http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/68/Acclamators-ST2.jpg) and [Gunships](http://www.imperialholocron.com/images/background_gunship.jpg), with all of that going on, with all that stuff flying around, do you really think he’s going to have the awareness to ID a threat a mile away before it even fires? > [@Miller](#): > > As to why they didn’t do that to the troopers when they carried out Order 66, I can’t really defend that scene. I mean, entirely apart from the whole grenades things we’re arguing about, the entire sequence revolves around Jedi suddenly loosing their two most commonly shown abilities: reading people’s minds, and blocking blasters with their lightsabers. The whole thing is completely incompatible with everything we’ve seen Jedi do in the previous five movies. I put that down to very bad writing. If the Clone Troopers were in on Order 66 from the very beginning, there’s no way, in-universe, that the Jedi would have been caught unawares. It had to be a “buried command” instilled into them at the cloning facility, one that they are never consciously aware of until it is activated. A mental flipping of the “Identify Friend/Foe” switch that moves Jedi from the friend to foe category with a speed and completeness nearing instantaneity, allowing them to gun down the Jedi with extremely little warning. > [@Miller](#): > > …and a grenade would not be significantly more massive than a lightsaber. And even with the delay, the object is still clearly moving, even before it takes off across the room. That wobble, on a grenade, would probably be enough to trigger the impact fuse. Not going to quote the whole thing, as I do agree that this is the closest we see a Force-user to having the abilities you ascribe (stopping a grenade in the barrel of a grenade launcher). I agree that a grenade at rest and a lightsaber at rest have similar energy values. But we’re not talking really about grenades at rest. We’re talking about multiple grenades, dozens really, flying hundreds of miles and hour, launched from up to a mile-and-change away. You say the Jedi can sense the threat. We know they _can_ sense threats, and if it was the _only_ threat, I might agree. But we’re talking battlefield, Clone War conditions. There’s a lot going on. Is a Jedi going to pick out that specific threat? You say they can TK the round in the barrel. The Mk. 19 has a recoil force of 500 pounds. Considering how fast it fires, that is one hell of an impulse. We only ever see one Jedi with that kind of power, and that’s Yoda catching _one_ Senate Saucer when Palpatine _threw a half-dozen of the things at him._ We do see Force-users manipulate multiple objects in combat conditions, and that’s Vader, and Palpatine. They’re manipulating objects within close visual range, and moving them (with some power, I’ll admit) also within close visual range. I submit that a barrage of dozens of grenades flying hundreds of miles and hour flying directly at a Jedi would overwhelm their capabilities. While we do see rare instances of several of the abilities necessary to protect themselves (or even turn the tables on the grenadier), we never see the combination of abilities, of reaction time, Force ability, and power level, necessary to stop that kind of firepower. I will allow this: if John Wayne ever [John Wayned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641205) a grenade at a Jedi, he’d be in for one rude, incredibly brief, and ultimately terminal surprise. **Oakminster** may be along to castigate me as a pinko commie for saying such a thing, but I’m not so sure his geekitude rises to “grenades vs. Jedi” as to bring him into this thread. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/63 "2012-04-13T14:41:32Z")
You guys are what makes this board so much fun. Thanks. And grenades would totally smash the Jedi. Even Yoda. It’s not so much the power of the weapon as it is the sheer number of projectiles. Overwhelm the Jedi, it will. Yes. Go boom he will. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/64 "2012-04-13T15:38:51Z")
I’ve seen plenty of Trek vs. Wars battles, but this is the first Star Wars vs. Real Live discussion I’ve seen. Good times. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/65 "2012-04-13T15:43:59Z")
I like the green ones. They’re sweet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/66 "2012-04-13T17:18:28Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > The second flows from the first. My suspension of disbelief fails whenever I see overwrought explanations for the simplest things. I see what you’re saying, but honestly, I don’t think my explanation is particularly overwrought. It’s a natural extrapolation of things we see Jedi do routinely. > [@](#): > > How much kinetic energy can a Jedi TK? And how far? Again, no on-screen (thus in-universe) evidence of any Jedi’s or Sith’s ability to TK battlefield ordnance hundreds, perhaps (literally!) thousands of meters away. > > A Mk 19 has a muzzle velocity of 240 m/s. That’s 864 km/h, or about 535 mi/h. That’s relatively slow compared to say a 9mm or .40&W bullet. It’s a large, heavy projectile (~ 0.5 kilo, or 1 pound) that does follow a reltively high-arc trajectory (not mortar levels of arc, but higher than a regular bullet), and terminal ballistics, while not necessary to compute for the effect of the round (it’s a flying bomb), are a factor in determining if a Force-user can TK “catch” or “deflect” them. > > Let’s say it’s only going about 150 m/s at 1,500m. That still a half-kilo object travelling at 540 km/h, or about 335 mi/h. But you keep saying “Stop it in the barrel.” It has the greatest “impulse” behind it at that point, and thus, I would think it would be even harder to stop it there that in flight. How much pressure does it take to trigger the fuse? The Jedi doesn’t need to stop or guide the projectile, he just needs to put enough braking force on it for it to think it’s hit something. > [@](#): > > Were you watching the same movies? “Lord Sidious” was directing the Separitists! He told them when and where to attack on several occasions. Yes, but he’s not President of the Federation, or anything. They aren’t part of a unified command structure. He has no official leadership position over them, and they feel no sense of loyalty towards him. They only do what he says because he’s convinced them that they’ll profit from it. They aren’t going to follow clearly suicidal orders, like “Don’t use any effective weapons against the Jedi.” > [@](#): > > Now put Vader on a Clone War battlefield, with thousands of Clone Troopers battling thousands of battle droids. There’s [artillery pieces](http://www.filmedge.net/clone/Zillo/SPHA_800.jpg) blasting Separatist ships out of the sky. There’s [AAT’s](http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/d/dc/AAT.jpg) and [Assault Ship’s](http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/68/Acclamators-ST2.jpg) and [Gunships](http://www.imperialholocron.com/images/background_gunship.jpg), with all of that going on, with all that stuff flying around, do you really think he’s going to have the awareness to ID a threat a mile away before it even fires? Sure, in a pitched battle, it’s going to be very difficult for a Jedi to pick up on an individual threat at that range. Of course, Jedi fight with swords. So if you plan to use the cover of battle to distract the Jedi from your grenade launcher, you have to be prepared to take some significant friendly fire casualties. (Admittedly, not much of a concern if your army is composed entirely of droids.) You can try to hit them before they engage, but then they’ve got that Jedi superspeed thing going for them - that plus enough precognition to know where a grenade is about to land would make them a very difficult target. This also assumes that you get free pick of what terrain you engage the Jedi on. If you can catch an army of Jedi totally unaware on open ground at long range, you probably will tear 'em up pretty good. The trick is getting them into that open ground: they are, after all, an army of precognitive mind readers. All it takes is one of them to suddenly get a bad feeling about where they’re headed, and there goes your element of surprise. So, I think a grenade launcher could be a useful weapon, in the right conditions. One Jedi versus one grenadier, the grenadier’s fucked. One Jedi versus many grenadiers, and no more Jedi. Scale it up to armies, and it depends on the terrain, and who has the element of surprise. If the Separtists get to pick, they choose the Bonneville Salt Flats and rain grenades on the Jedi from over a mile a way. If the Jedi get to pick, they choose the Parisian catacombs, and hunt the Separatist army down like rats. > [@](#): > > I put that down to very bad writing. If the Clone Troopers were in on Order 66 from the very beginning, there’s no way, in-universe, that the Jedi would have been caught unawares. It had to be a “buried command” instilled into them at the cloning facility, one that they are never consciously aware of until it is activated. A mental flipping of the “Identify Friend/Foe” switch that moves Jedi from the friend to foe category with a speed and completeness nearing instantaneity, allowing them to gun down the Jedi with extremely little warning. What was that you said earlier about overwrought explanations? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BomTek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bomtek/32/21364_2.png) [@BomTek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BomTek)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/67 "2012-04-13T19:05:55Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Blue! > > No, Gree-- A > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … h > … ! > … ! > … ! I can’t believe no one else has done this, but… _golf clap_ ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/68 "2012-04-14T01:24:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How much pressure does it take to trigger the fuse? The Jedi doesn’t need to stop or guide the projectile, he just needs to put enough braking force on it for it to think it’s hit something. They aren’t armed at firing. IIRC, they “spin arm” during flight, and are considered armed after about 14m. > [@Miller](#): > > Yes, but he’s not President of the Federation, or anything. They aren’t part of a unified command structure. He has no official leadership position over them, and they feel no sense of loyalty towards him. They only do what he says because he’s convinced them that they’ll profit from it. They aren’t going to follow clearly suicidal orders, like “Don’t use any effective weapons against the Jedi.” And Palpatine is too smart to give clearly suicidal orders. But he’s in a good position to play both ends against the middle. And thus perpetuate a war in which he’s accumulating the necessary executive power to declare himself Emperor. I’m actually kind of curious about what kind of Empire he would have had if the Jedi had 28.3g of subtlety, and didn’t rush in to arrest the legally elected Chancellor. Would Palpatine have triggered Order 66 anyway? Could the Jedi have quietly lobbied loyal Senators to put electoral pressure on Palpatine to relinquish the near-absolute power he had accumulated? > [@Miller](#): > > Sure, in a pitched battle, it’s going to be very difficult for a Jedi to pick up on an individual threat at that range. Of course, Jedi fight with swords. So if you plan to use the cover of battle to distract the Jedi from your grenade launcher, you have to be prepared to take some significant friendly fire casualties. (Admittedly, not much of a concern if your army is composed entirely of droids.) You can try to hit them before they engage, but then they’ve got that Jedi superspeed thing going for them - that plus enough precognition to know where a grenade is about to land would make them a very difficult target. This also assumes that you get free pick of what terrain you engage the Jedi on. If you can catch an army of Jedi totally unaware on open ground at long range, you probably will tear 'em up pretty good. The trick is getting them into that open ground: they are, after all, an army of precognitive mind readers. All it takes is one of them to suddenly get a bad feeling about where they’re headed, and there goes your element of surprise. > > So, I think a grenade launcher could be a useful weapon, in the right conditions. One Jedi versus one grenadier, the grenadier’s fucked. One Jedi versus many grenadiers, and no more Jedi. Scale it up to armies, and it depends on the terrain, and who has the element of surprise. If the Separtists get to pick, they choose the Bonneville Salt Flats and rain grenades on the Jedi from over a mile a way. If the Jedi get to pick, they choose the Parisian catacombs, and hunt the Separatist army down like rats. It looked to me as if individual Jedi were leading Task Groups; outside of the Arena Battle on Geonosis, we don’t really see any Jedi Armies, per se. Were the Jedi out-and-about with the Clone Armies in order to try to locate Darth Sideous or Count Dooku (they were cuckoo for Dooku puffs!)? Or were they actually commanding Clone Armies? I kind of got the impression that they were as much “Commissars” for the Senate, overseeing the Clone War and lending Jedi assistance where needed. Choosing favorable terrain is an art. “On dangerous ground, maneuver; on deadly ground, fight.” And The Enemy, that dastardy fiend, rarely cooperates. Would Jedi insight cover military stratagems and battlefield tactics? Would it substitute for military academy-level training and battlefield experience? Would they get that “I got a bad feeling about this” Force-assisted Spidey-sense tingling up the back if a very clever enemy commander lures them and the military forces they command onto deadly gound with superlative tactics and cunning? As always, the right weapon for the right place/time. Taking a grenade launcher into tunnels/catacombs is silly. Never play to your enemy’s strengths. If the Jedi retreat to catacombs and dare us to follow, seal the entrances with flamethrower units, maybe have Engineers actually seal known exits with a few kilos of carefully emplaced demo, and then pump in simple heavier-than-air gases (CO2 comes to mind) and see how long they can breathe _that._ ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/69 "2012-04-14T01:40:51Z")
_‘ ~~…Rainbow!..~~ ’_ Seriously, though, green. When Luke showed up at Jaba’s with the green saber, you could tell he was serious. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/70 "2012-04-14T02:36:48Z")
I’d take both crystals, and make an aqua one. BEAT THAT, BITCHES!!! ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/71 "2012-04-14T03:49:15Z")
And FTR, it’s blue IFTBW. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/72 "2012-04-15T06:12:53Z")
Blue, definitely blue. Over green anyway. I’d probably go with red if it was an option. But since it’s not, I’ll go with the only other color seen in Star Wars and Empire, and that is blue. What was the deal with Kenner, anyway? Why’d they keep sticking my Luke action figures with lousy yellow sabers? At least until the Jedi figure, then for some reason they finally gave him blue… even though he actually had green then. Yeah, I know it was original still blue in Jedi but the sky yadda yadda, running change on the figure, blah blah, but it still don’t explain the yellow sabers. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478/73 "2012-04-15T12:39:34Z")
Teal would be nice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-color-lightsaber-do-you-choose-average-jedi/618478.md?page=3)