# Which countries are more Libertarian , and is that good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933 "2010-04-04T18:43:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/1 "2010-04-04T18:43:28Z")
I have a friend who leans libertarian and we have regular discussions. In another thread someone named Somalia as a libertarian country. Looking in the web I see [Estonia](http://theunknowncandidate.blogspot.com/2006/09/estonia-land-of-free.html)is listed as a more libertarian country. Ireland as well although both have public financed health care. In an atmosphere where individuals claim our liberties are being methodically diminished which countries provide positive models of libertarianism , what are the positives, negatives, similarities and differences from the US democratic republic? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/2 "2010-04-04T21:06:09Z")
Milton Friedman would often point to Hong Kong (before its handover to the PRC) as an exemplar of laissez-faire economics. _See generally_, Free to Choose, _available at_ [http://www.ideachannel.tv/](http://www.ideachannel.tv/). ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/3 "2010-04-04T21:21:22Z")
haiti seems pretty libertarian right now. oh, p.s. your link suggests that you are badly confusing “liberty” with being libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/4 "2010-04-04T22:17:37Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > haiti seems pretty libertarian right now. > oh, p.s. your link suggests that you are badly confusing “liberty” with being libertarian. Wouldn’t the degree of individual liberty have something to do with how a country aligns with libertarian principles? Could you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/5 "2010-04-04T22:23:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wouldn’t the degree of individual liberty have something to do with how a country aligns with libertarian principles? no\*, why do you think this to be the case? as an example: in a anarcho-capitalism system, or miniarchists, I’m really sure the guys at the bottom of the economic spectrum don’t feel like they have much liberty to do anything. \*it depends how you define libertarian, now doesn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/6 "2010-04-04T22:34:17Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > haiti seems pretty libertarian right now. > oh, p.s. your link suggests that you are badly confusing “liberty” with being libertarian. I think that counts as ‘clever cheap shot’ rather than insightful analysis. One of Haiti’s big problems has been that its government has been too controlling and corrupt, and the regulatory burden on business severe. There’s no incentive to build a business. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > According to a World Bank report in 2006, “In Haiti, the process of business regulations is complex and customs procedures are lengthy.”[4] On average, opening a business took 204 days. For comparison, the average was 73.3 days in Latin America and 16.3 days in OECD countries.[4] It took estimated 5 years and 65 bureaucratic procedures for a private person to buy land from the state.[4] It took 683 days to register a property.[4] All Latin American and Caribbean countries except Cuba and Venezuela enjoyed much more economic freedom than Haiti on the Index of Economic Freedom of 2006.[4] > > The political elite is also involved in various criminal businesses. Beaudoin Ketant, a notorious international drug trafficker, Jean-Bertrand Aristide’s close partner, and his daughter’s godfather, confessed that Aristide “turned the country into a narco-country; it’s a one-man show; you either pay (Aristide) or you die”.[5] According to the BBC, pyramid schemes “were only real economic initiative of the Aristide years.” Estimated $200 million was lost in these scams.[6] Does that sound even vaguely libertarian to you? And note that if you don’t know the difference between general lawlessness and libertarianism, you’ve got some reading to do. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/7 "2010-04-04T22:39:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think that counts as ‘clever cheap shot’ rather than insightful analysis. how very insightful of you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/8 "2010-04-04T23:11:09Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no\*, why do you think this to be the case? > > as an example: in a anarcho-capitalism system, or miniarchists, I’m really sure the guys at the bottom of the economic spectrum don’t feel like they have much liberty to do anything. > > \*it depends how you define libertarian, now doesn’t it. right. I’m going by minimum government interference in our lives but not total lawlessness. or maybe [this](http://www.libertarianism.com/what-it-is.htm) > [@](#): > > Libertarianism is thus the combination of liberty (the freedom to live your life in any peaceful way you choose), responsibility (the prohibition against the use of force against others, except in defense), and tolerance (honoring and respecting the peaceful choices of others). or [this](http://www.theihs.org/ContentDetails.aspx?id=626) > [@](#): > > Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others. Libertarians defend each person’s right to life, liberty, and property-rights that people have naturally, before governments are created. In the libertarian view, all human relationships should be voluntary; the only actions that should be forbidden by law are those that involve the initiation of force against those who have not themselves used force-actions like murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, and fraud. how bout you? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/9 "2010-04-04T23:26:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > right. > I’m going by minimum government interference in our lives but not total lawlessness. > > or maybe [this](http://www.libertarianism.com/what-it-is.htm) > or [this](http://www.theihs.org/ContentDetails.aspx?id=626) > how bout you? the first quote you tender don’t have much to do with the level of government interference in a person’s life. if you’re merely asking about which countries have higher degrees of personal liberty than others, then you can take a look at your usual suspects - namely the western-style democracies if you’re really asking about which countries have “less government interference” then you’re not going to be looking at western-style democracies much, except for the US ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/10 "2010-04-05T10:00:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > . In another thread someone named Somalia as a libertarian country. Anarchy might be a better description of Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/11 "2010-04-05T10:12:37Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Milton Friedman would often point to Hong Kong (before its handover to the PRC) as an exemplar of laissez-faire economics. _See generally_, Free to Choose, _available at_ [http://www.ideachannel.tv/](http://www.ideachannel.tv/). True, Hong Kong has low taxes and very pro-capital fiscal policy, but it is a heavily regulated society and therefore not “libertarian” by any definition I understand. Amongst other things, gambling is illegal except through the government-owned Jockey Club; there’s a large and thriving civil service; all taxis are government-licenced and regulated (they are all the same model of car); there is government-funded housing everywhere; they have UHC too; free tax-funded education for all; public transport is partially government owned through public/private financing; while there are no state pensions, there’s still a mandatory Singapore-style Provident Fund; and many other things. Personally I think they’ve got the balance about right, though they benefit from economies of scale and size - many people, not much room - though it would be better if they could provide some minimum standard of living for the very poor (which can be shocking, especially for the elderly childless), but it’s not libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/12 "2010-04-05T10:15:00Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Anarchy might be a better description of Somalia. Well, libertarianism is sometimes called the “anarchy of the Right” for a reason. And I have heard libertarians claim that Somalia is better off because its government collapsed (not that they seem in any hurry to move there). I’d say an example of libertarianism being implemented as much as they could manage would be immediate post-conquest Iraq. The Bushies wanted to turn it into a libertarian paradise; they gutted the government’s ability to regulate, made sure that there was no government help for anything as much as they could manage, under the theory that if Evil Government was kept from interfering that business would rush in to the low tax, no regulation Free Market utopia of Iraq and fix everything up in a jiffy. Instead of course there was starvation, chaos and death. Really; if you want to know what libertarianism looks like in the real world and not in their fantasies, look at failed states. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/13 "2010-04-05T10:18:23Z")
I missed the most important state intervention in Hong Kong of all: the government owns all the land! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/14 "2010-04-05T10:47:39Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I missed the most important state intervention in Hong Kong of all: the government owns all the land! It’s the same everywhere. If any government wants your land, unless you are powerful or influential enough to prevent it, they WILL take it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/15 "2010-04-05T10:53:48Z")
Libertarianism has two vital components: the government is used to prevent people being subjected to harm by their neighbours without their consent, and it _isn’t_ used for everything else. Remove the first and you have anarchism, remove the second and you have mainstream government. **Der Trihs** ’s attempt to paint the US’s attempt to turn Iraq into a captive market for the government’s chosen beneficiaries as having anything to do with libertarianism demonstrates just how little he knows about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/16 "2010-04-05T11:50:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Libertarianism has two vital components: the government is used to prevent people being subjected to harm by their neighbours without their consent, and it _isn’t_ used for everything else. Most libertarians oppose government protection from anything, including their neighbors. Especially when it comes to matters like fraud and coercion. > [@Grumman](#): > > **Der Trihs** ’s attempt to paint the US’s attempt to turn Iraq into a captive market for the government’s chosen beneficiaries as having anything to do with libertarianism demonstrates just how little he knows about the subject. No, it just demonstrates that more than one thing was going on; I did say “early post conquest”. And there was more than one faction involved as well. The point is, they deliberately hamstrung the government and withheld aid according to libertarian principles, and the result was predictable disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/17 "2010-04-05T11:57:03Z")
A question for those who advocate libertarianism: A very good friend of mine from college went to work for the federal government. She was an inspector for the FDA. She travelled to various seafood plants and made sure that they were following all the proper procedures for cleanliness and preparation so that their food was safe to eat. Would a libertarian government still provide that service? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/18 "2010-04-05T12:25:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Really; if you want to know what libertarianism looks like in the real world and not in their fantasies, look at failed states. Umm… no. Libertarianism is based on the respect for others’ rights, and encompasses the requirement for a government which regulates that. This is not evident in places like Somalia and Haiti. Or even the US with its concept of Eminent Domain. But the US gets it largely right, as does the EU. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/19 "2010-04-05T19:01:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It’s the same everywhere. If any government wants your land, unless you are powerful or influential enough to prevent it, they WILL take it. This is a nitpick irrelevant to the thread, but there’s a heap of difference between Compulsory Purchase Orders and the situation in Hong Kong, with the government actually owning the land, and releasing tranches of it strategically for development in order to manipulate the market. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933/20 "2010-04-05T21:50:08Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… no. Libertarianism is based on the respect for others’ rights, and encompasses the requirement for a government which regulates that. Nonsense. It’s based on the idea that the Free Market is the ultimate good, that only property rights matter, and the unfortunate should be left to rot. It has no respect for the rights of others at all. It’s not like I don’t hear and argue with these people often enough to know what they believe. And no, making speeches about how you support rights while pushing for changes that will neuter them doesn’t qualify as respecting those rights. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-countries-are-more-libertarian-and-is-that-good-or-bad/534933.md?page=2)