Which countries never had to gain independence?

No “fight for independence”? Do you believe the UN resolution founding Israel was spontaneously generated? This is a nice fiction perpetuated by current Israeli apologists.

The “struggle for independence” in the 1940’s was marked by terrorism directed against both Palestinian residents (to encourage them to leave the land “given by God” to the Zionists, but which wasn’t owned or occupied by them) and the British residents. Great Britain “owned” Palestine during this time.

The terror bombing campaign conducted by, among others, Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir – later Israeli prime ministers, began long before “independence” and continued afterwards. In the process, they successfully displaced nearly 3/4 million Palestinian residents who are still living in ‘refugee camps’. These same ‘camps’ were recently invaded by Sharon & his bully boys.

Terrorism and struggles for independence in what is now Israel are nothing new.

In relation to England:

I don’t think the country has ever been liberated but, perhaps, we’re still waiting…

The Romans invaded (in 43AD) but they didn’t really invade a ‘country’, just a bunch of disparate tribes. Ditto when they retired.

Next up would probably be the 5th century invasion by the Angles and Saxons but, again, they weren’t invading a ‘country’.

Perhaps the important development was in relation to the Viking invasions (during the 7-800’s AD). Alfred’s organisation of the resistance to the Vikings put in motion the steps that led to something we might recognise as ‘nationhood’.

I suppose the last successful ‘invasion’ might have been a couple of hundred years later, in 1066 (the Norman Conquest), at which point ‘England’ pretty well existed as an entity – of course, William felt he had a legitimate claim to the Throne (blood cousin to King Edward, allegedly promised the Throne by Edward on his death) so, depending on your perspective, that doesn’t really count as an invasion but rather an assertion of his rights.

Problem, in terms of this question, is that even if the Norman Conquest is accepted as an ‘invasion’ of a ‘country’ they never went away again so there was no liberation or independence gained.

Perhaps we’re still occupied – should I drop a line to Tony Blair ?

In fact, why aren’t I speaking French ?

You’re forgetting the Danish Conquest :slight_smile: .

Cnut, King of England, 1016-1035
Harold I, Harefoot, 1037-1040
Harthacnut, 1040-1042

'course Cnut was a reasonably popular king in England, Edward the Confessor ( 1042-1066 ) and Hathacnut were half-brothers and after 1040 allies ( with Edward seemingly ‘sharing’ some role in the English kingship ), and Edward gained the throne peacefully in default of any other heirs when Harthacnut died unexpectedly. So your point may still hold :). In fact if Cnut hadn’t died quite so suddenly at a young 40, England might still be under a Danish monarchy ;).

  • Tamerlane

London_Calling You should be speaking Norman… its a wonderful mixture of Norse, Latin and Old French. :wink:

This whole concept of “independence” pretty much came in with the modern nation-state. Once the concept of The People forming their own Nation took hold, then you could speak of their becoming independent.

The way I look at it, to speak of France gaining independence from England in the Hundred Years’ War is not really relevant to the question. Because in those days a country was considered the fiefdom of its monarch. William the Conqueror ruled England and lived in England, but still held territory in France. Same for the Plantagenets. Was it a case of England “colonizing” France, or was it the French “colonizing” England? Neither. It was a case of an absolute monarch holding fiefdoms wherever he could gain them by conquest, inheritance, or marriage. The nature of the territory or ethnicity itself didn’t matter. Look, England hasn’t had a really English monarch since Aethelred or thereabouts. They got monarchs who were Danes, French, Normans, Welsh, Scots, Dutch … and for the past 300 years they’ve been Germans. The Prince of Edinburgh came from Greece, but who cares if he isn’t really “English”? That’s the way the game is played. The Tsarevich had hemophilia because it was passed to him by Queen Victoria. The crowned heads of Europe were all each other’s cousins, which shows that ethnicity and nationality had little to do with statecraft in their system. Ever since the Middle Ages, they’d been sending royalty around from one country to another.

So we can only begin to speak of a nation’s independence when the people themselves begin to gain independence from the monarchical system. Perhaps the first real independence movement in the modern sense was in the 16th century when the Dutch nation got independence from the Spanish king. And then a Dutch guy named Hugo de Groot first figured out the law of nations.

When Europeans colonized other continents, there was the sense of a people being dominated by another people, not just a monarch. Because of colonialism’s institutionalized inequality and racism. In this sense, Thailand was the most successful non-European country ever to resist colonialism. Thailand is my best candidate for the answer to the OP. I think they made out even better than Japan, because Japan was forced against her will to open up to foreign military might even though she wasn’t colonized. Iran remained technically independent even though de facto they came under British hegemony for some time.

Afghanistan had been part of the Mughal Empire in the 16th century; in fact, Afghanistan is where Babur first began to put together the Mughal Empire, before he went to India. His descendants weren’t able to hold onto it. In the 18th century, Afghanistan was part of the Afsharid Empire, conquered by Nadir Shah of Persia on his way to India. But again, this was the old model under which a monarch was a supranational entity. It wasn’t until the Afghans butted heads with British imperialism that the independence of the Afghan nation from the British nation became definite. British imperialism is what caused Afghanistan to coalesce into a nation-state, or rather an approximation of one. “Bobs” of Kandahar didn’t have to conquer it to earn that sobriquet, he just had to fight a battle there and acquit himself honorably. And then get his sorry butt the hell out of there before the Afghans sliced and diced it.

And when Ahmed Shah Abdali founded the Afghan kingdom in 1747, he proceeded to incorporate most of modern Pakistan and a chunk of modern India ( the Punjab, Kashmir ) as well :). He was also offered the Mughul throne ( with control of Delhi and the western Gangetic Plain ) after kicking the Marathas’ ass at Panipat in 1761, but turned it down. Before that Afghanistan never even existed as a conception of a separate state ( well except maybe for the period Acmal Khan’s rebellion in 1672-74 ), instead it was just another sub-region in a variety of empires. The better part of Nadir Shah’s army was Afghan and Ahmed Shah Abdali was the commander of his personal bodyguard.

Some good points Jomo Mojo, as always :). Though even under your criteria, I’d still give Japan and Ethiopia a slightly higher rating than Thailand. Thailand may have successfully resisted direct colonization, but they were very much a de facto ( in fact de jure ) protectorate of the British for a much longer period than Japan and Ethiopia’s comparatively brief priods of subjugation. Six of one, I suppose…

  • Tamerlane

The Principality of Sealand never had to win its independence. It was initially occupied September 2, 1967 by Roy Bates. About a year later Sealand had a skirmish with the British Navy but they were repelled. In 1978 Sealand was invaded by Dutch mercenaries in the employ of a German businessman but Sealand was recaptured and the invaders were taken prisoner.

http://www.sealandgov.com/history.html

:cool:

Sparc, don’t call me Norman, Shirley. Actually, I suppose if Harold’s brother Tostig had been successful at Stamford Bridge I’d be speaking Norwegian. Which is even more troubling.

Well Tamerlane, perhaps one man’s Viking is another’s Dane :slight_smile:
BTW, how’s about Bhutan ? From the good ol’ CIA Fact Book:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bt.html

“In 1865, Britain and Bhutan signed the Treaty of Sinchulu, under which Bhutan would receive an annual subsidy in exchange for ceding some border land. Under British influence, a monarchy was set up in 1907; three years later, a treaty was signed whereby the British agreed not to interfere in Bhutanese internal afairs and Bhutan allowed Britain to direct its foreign affairs. This role was assumed by independent India after 1947. Two years later, a formal Indo-Bhutanese accord returned the areas of Bhutan annexed by the British, formalized the annual subsidies the country received, and defined India’s responsibilities in defense and foreign relations.”

Not straightforward but perhaps it’s possible to make a case for continued internal independence ?

Iceland declared its independence from Denmark in 1944. At that time Denmark was under Nazi occupation, so they weren’t exactly in a position to complain. The foreign minister is reported to have said that all they could do was wire congratulations.

Norway’s situation is more complicated. After a single man turned out to be heir to both the Danish and the Norwegian thrones, it became a province (not a colony) of Denmark for about 400 years. Denmark backed the losing side in the Napoleonic Wars, and Norway was taken away from it by the winners as a punishment. Norway was then supposed to be given to Sweden under a similar arrangement, but due to some complicated circumstances I won’t even try to get into here, Norway and Sweden ended up in a “personal union” - they shared a king, but were two separate nations in most ways. The problem was the definition of “most ways”. Norway’s parliament unilaterally declared the union dissolved on 7 June 1905.

…San Marino?..was it ever part of Italy…did it become independent, or did it just not become part of the unified Italy?..

I think San Marino has a case

I rather arbitrarily decided not to go back any farther than three hundred years. If you go back far enough, everyplace has been invaded at some point. There’s probably some Neanderthals still grumbling about the Cro-Magnons moving in.

On the Iceland issue, I have to admit I was wrong. I’ve heard about Iceland’s parliament supposedly being the oldest existing legislature and I assumed this meant they had been an independent nation all that time. But as noted above, Iceland was controlled by Denmark from 1380-1918 (from 1918 to 1944, Iceland was a kingdom, sharing their sovereign with Denmark. In 1944, Iceland became a republic.)

Nepal.

My understanding is that that little country has never been occupied mainly becuase they have the good fortune to be romote and in a nonstrategic area.

Haj

What about Stathouder William who deposed James II in a coup d’etat in 1688 to become William III of England? You don’t get much more successful than that.

hibernicus, you old sod. Not going to touch religion with a flame-proof barge pole, except to say it’s unlikely, IMHO, it falls within the terms of the OP.

If the OP feels inclined to look further, I’d suggest a search engine and plugging in ‘Mary II’, ‘William III’ or ‘William and Mary’.

Well, China got back the last colony on her soil in 1997, when Hong Kong was handed over by the British. Not sure how you would consider that one, since the Hong Kongese went from one overlord to another.

Let’s not forget Macao, 1999.

Well, it isn’t up to what you’ll “let me keep,” but what the facts support.

Liberia satisfies the terms of the OP. It never had to gain independence from another country. From U.S. colonization societies, yes, but not from the U.S. government.

Afghanistan, at least in terms of its recent history, fulfills the terms better than Japan and Ethiopia. Afghanistan was never under the full control of Britain, although it was technically a protectorate from 1907-1919. Japan and Ethiopia were under the control of a foreign power during their occupations before or during WWII.

How about using “longest continuous government” as a criteria ?

Using this then the Isle of Man with its Tynwald, the name for its parliament, would be a likely candidate, being just over 1000 years old.

Switzerland, baby! Neutral and armed to the teeth since 1291.

Just feudal feifdoms before that.

http://www.state.gov/www/background_notes/switzerland_9905_bgn.html