# Which country has lost most citizens in the high seas
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 2, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080 "2019-08-02T19:36:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/1 "2019-08-02T19:36:10Z")
In the sense that countries as we know of now have existed in the last few hundred years.
Let s discount origins as Romans, Vikings, Bretons.
Let us restrict ourselves to countries that went to the high seas as nation states for their kings or country as in the sea farers from the British empire, Portuguese, french and Dutch tradesmen.
Include wars too.
So which country has most of its citizens perishing in the seas?
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### Author:  [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/2 "2019-08-02T19:49:08Z")
Probably India-Pakistan-Bangladesh countries.
Given the periodic monsoons & floods here that wash millions into the sea to drown, I think they would be near the top.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/3 "2019-08-02T19:51:17Z")
I’d hazard a good guess that it’s the English/British based on sheer man-miles sailed if nothing else.
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### Author:  [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/4 "2019-08-02T20:05:58Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#):
>
> Probably India-Pakistan-Bangladesh countries.
>
> Given the periodic monsoons & floods here that wash millions into the sea to drown, I think they would be near the top.
Never heard of people being washed into the seas due to monsoons. In large numbers.
In any case drowning in rivers does not count.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/5 "2019-08-02T20:17:10Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#):
>
> Let us restrict ourselves to countries that went to the high seas as nation states for their kings or country as in the sea farers from the British empire, Portuguese, french and Dutch tradesmen.
What does this mean? You only want to count people who died in international waters while serving their country? If so, that would be whoever lost the most sailors in war. Japan or Germany, probably. I’m guessing Japan just based on [WWII numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Military_casualties_by_branch_of_service).
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### Author:  [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/6 "2019-08-02T20:22:32Z")
Today? Many cruise ships use a lot of Phillipino help. I would bet they are up there if not #1.
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### Author:  [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/7 "2019-08-02T21:04:28Z")
> [@neutro](#):
>
> Today? Many cruise ships use a lot of Phillipino help. I would bet they are up there if not #1.
But those cruise ships almost never sink.
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/8 "2019-08-02T21:09:28Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#):
>
> Never heard of people being washed into the seas due to monsoons. In large numbers.
>
> In any case drowning in rivers does not count.
Monsoons don’t kill people in large numbers, but I believe some cyclones (hurricanes) in Bangladesh have. But yes, probably drowned in rivers, or perhaps the sea, but no one did an autopsy afterward to say which.
> [@neutro](#):
>
> Today? Many cruise ships use a lot of Phillipino help. I would bet they are up there if not #1.
Cruise ships do not have large numbers of sailors die, as a general rule.
For the OP, I agree that it’s probably a contest between Britain and Japan.
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### Author:  [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/9 "2019-08-02T22:13:51Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#):
>
> Never heard of people being washed into the seas due to monsoons. In large numbers.
>
> In any case drowning in rivers does not count.
Little thing called the 1970 Cyclone? [1970 Bhola cyclone - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_Bhola_cyclone)
Inspired the Concert for Bangladesh? George Harrison?
Anyway, probably the greatest loss of life from a natural disaster ever. The wiki mentions 500,000 dead; I’ve read up to 1 million.
Japanese naval war dead have to be up there.
Edit: how’re the Mongol casualties from the Divine Wind classified? Primarily Chinese? Mongolian? Further cheerful thoughts: what’s the estimated death toll from the Vietnamese boat people, circa 1975-77? My understanding is that Thai and other pirates cut a horrific swath through them.
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### Author:  [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/10 "2019-08-02T23:01:37Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#):
>
> In any case drowning in rivers does not count.
How about tsunamis, where the high seas come to the victims?
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/11 "2019-08-02T23:33:02Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#):
>
> In the sense that countries as we know of now have existed in the last few hundred years.
>
> Let s discount origins as Romans, Vikings, Bretons.
>
> Let us restrict ourselves to countries that went to the high seas as nation states for their kings or country as in the sea farers from the British empire, Portuguese, french and Dutch tradesmen.
>
> Include wars too.
>
> So which country has most of its citizens perishing in the seas?
Seeing that the OP doesn’t seem to include monsoons and tsunamis, it’d have to be the British, who had a long dependence on trade and navy to maintain their empire.
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### Author:  [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/12 "2019-08-03T01:13:16Z")
> [@neutro](#):
>
> Today? Many cruise ships use a lot of Phillipino help. I would bet they are up there if not #1.
Even leaving aside cruise ships, there are more merchant sailors from the Philippines than any other country on earth. Whatever the yearly casualties are on cargo vessels, most likely there are a bunch of Filipinos among that statistic.
OK, that would seem not to apply to the OP after rereading it. The OP is specifying seamen who are acting on orders of their government, i.e. basically military. I would have to assume either Spain or England.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/13 "2019-08-03T02:42:35Z")
In the modern era, I’m going with Vietnam. Estimates of deaths at sea of Vietnamese fleeing the Communists range between 200,000-400,000. Going back to WWII, Japan lost 414,000 sailors. In contrast, the British merchant marine forces lost about 36,000 people (couldn’t find numbers for the Navy, but its losses come nowhere close to Japan’s), Germany lost about 138,000 sailors, and the U.S. lost about 62,000.
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### Author:  [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/14 "2019-08-03T21:45:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> In the modern era, I’m going with Vietnam. Estimates of deaths at sea of Vietnamese fleeing the Communists range between 200,000-400,000. Going back to WWII, Japan lost 414,000 sailors. In contrast, the British merchant marine forces lost about 36,000 people (couldn’t find numbers for the Navy, but its losses come nowhere close to Japan’s), Germany lost about 138,000 sailors, and the U.S. lost about 62,000.
That’s an awful lot of deaths. I would have guessed lower, in every case.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/15 "2019-08-03T22:45:20Z")
Let’s not forget Japan. Lots of islands, lots of small ships.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/16 "2019-08-04T12:52:47Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> Let’s not forget Japan. Lots of islands, lots of small ships.
The OP refers to the “high seas” and “sea farers” so I think that’s discounting the fishermen.
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### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/17 "2019-08-04T13:05:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Going back to WWII, Japan lost 414,000 sailors. In contrast, the British merchant marine forces lost about 36,000 people (couldn’t find numbers for the Navy, but its losses come nowhere close to Japan’s), Germany lost about 138,000 sailors, and the U.S. lost about 62,000.
“Records [from WW2] indicate 50,758 Royal Navy deaths as well as 30,248 Merchant Navy deaths, and include figures from the losses of Newfoundland and Southern Rhodesia.”
[https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/world-war-two-naval-losses](https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/world-war-two-naval-losses)
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### Author:  [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/18 "2019-08-04T17:28:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Going back to WWII, Japan lost 414,000 sailors…
That’s naval personnel. Not all would have been lost at sea. Besides naval air crews from land bases, a significant number of naval personnel were killed in land combat as part of island garrisons. For example IJN forces on Luzon alone in 1945 totaled over 30,000, service troops and the Manila Defense Force, almost all of whom were eventually killed in land combat and air raids. Also the total IJN personnel loss varies by source. The wikipedia page for Imperial Navy gives a figure around 300,000 which is from the book “Kaigun” by Evans and Peattie.
OTOH it doesn’t include Japanese merchant mariners, other civilians and Army personnel killed in the sinking of Japanese merchant ships. This link says the total killed in the sinking of Japanese merchant ships in the Pacific War was 232,000, though that would have some overlap with the IJN total as to naval personnel killed while being transported or serving as gun crews on merchant ships. It’s also said to include Allied POW’s killed in the sinking of Japanese merchant ships. The link also implies though that it’s a bottom-up number from individual ships’ histories so might not be complete.
> **[第二次世界大戦の船舶喪失 - gooブログはじめました！](https://blog.goo.ne.jp/imbanojunin/e/2d7338f51db73233aa7d464548d5d5a8)**
>
> 2016年1月29日、全日本海員組合が記者会見し、民間船員を予備自衛官とする防衛省の計画に対し、「事実上の徴用で断じて許されない」とする声明を発表しました。防衛省は日本の南西地域での有事を想定して民間フェリー2隻を選定し、海上自衛隊による有事運航を可能とする一方、民間船員21人を予備自衛官とする予算を2017年度政府予算案に盛り込む方針であるとしました。海員組合の森田組合長は「太平洋戦争中、物資や人員の輸送のため徴用された民間の船舶が、1万5,000隻以上撃沈され、６万人余りの船員が犠牲になった...
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### Author:  [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/19 "2019-08-04T19:10:41Z")
One of the more notable losses by Germany on the “high seas” was [Operation Hannibal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hannibal)- the evacuation of military personnel and civilians on the Baltic towards the west.
Some big [losses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_maritime_disasters_in_World_War_II) of life. But exact data is impossible given the chaotic situation.
There’s a Wikipedia [page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_maritime_disasters) on loss of life incidents at sea but it is far from complete. OTOH, they think that over 100k people were lost in the failed Mongol invasion of Japan. That a now-landlocked country would rank in such a stat is interesting.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-has-lost-most-citizens-in-the-high-seas/838080/20 "2019-08-04T19:20:28Z")
Coastal waters ≠ high seas. The monsoon casualties referred to above don’t count.
[High seas](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/high_seas) _n.pl._ (nautical) Regions of the ocean that are far from shore, especially those regions that do not belong to any country.
My guess would be the nation that historically has sent the most people out in ships on the high seas, especially in the past eras when ships were more sinkable: the UK. Probably the US Navy and merchant marine put more people on the high seas in actual numbers today, but the ships are probably less sinkable than when they were made of wood, caulked with tar and oakum, and deploying big sails, with masts making a higher center of gravity, that made them more likely to capsize in gales.
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