# Which country is more cruelly racist, US or SA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136 "2013-12-12T03:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/21 "2013-12-12T23:33:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s the prize? > Wait, are we talking just wrong on the race front here, or more wrong _overall_? > See “Hitler vs Stalin: who was more evil”… Really – we could go on forever, and for the next round do the Atlantic African Slave Trade vs. the Genocide and Dispossession of the Natives of the Americas. Or do a trans-historical one of the Spanish Inquisition at their peak vs. the Taliban at theirs. So yes, what is the prize? What is accomplished? Being able to reflect on your own society’s sin and shame is a good thing, but what use is it to determine if they were greater than someone else’s? It’s one thing to be expected to recognize the plank in your own eye before you call out the mote in your neighbor’s, but what if you\* both \*have planks? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/22 "2013-12-13T03:08:16Z")
Surely Rwanda would be in the running for the most cruelly racist country–at least for a period of time. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/23 "2013-12-13T04:02:13Z")
Ooooh, comparative atrocities! I always vote Belgian Congo. Underdog choice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/24 "2013-12-13T06:13:18Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Surely Rwanda would be in the running for the most cruelly racist country–at least for a period of time. That’s an … interesting … definition of “racist” you’re using, I’m sure :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/25 "2013-12-13T06:52:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s an … interesting … definition of “racist” you’re using, I’m sure :dubious: It’s an especially odd definition coming from such a strong proponent of Scientific racism since the Tutsis and the Hutus were largely invented “tribes” about as genetically distinct as Oklahomans and Kansans. If I didn’t know any better I’d think he was conceding the idea of biologically defined races was a discredited myth that it would be very foolish to believe in. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/26 "2013-12-13T08:39:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s an especially odd definition coming from such a strong proponent of Scientific racism since the Tutsis and the Hutus were largely invented “tribes” about as genetically distinct as Oklahomans and Kansans. Oh, I somehow don’t doubt Pedant’s read that racist asshole Razib Khan’s fatuous study on Hutu/Tutsi ancestry: He analysed the genetics of precisely **one** _3/4_ Tutsi, and concluded they weren’t Bantu at all. A masterwork of science, I’m sure you’ll agree :rolleyes: But I think his point will possibly be that _they_ see each other as different. But that’s still not racism - intergroup Black-on-Black violence is no new thing in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/27 "2013-12-13T10:59:01Z")
Does several hundred thousand dead ‘rag heads’ weigh? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/28 "2013-12-13T22:03:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But I think his point will possibly be that _they_ see each other as different. But that’s still not racism - intergroup Black-on-Black violence is no new thing in Africa. The Nazis weren’t racist against Jews, since Jews are white. White on white violence was no new thing in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/29 "2013-12-14T14:51:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The Nazis weren’t racist against Jews, since Jews are white. Well, yes, they were racist or more strictly, they were **_sub_racist** - the racist classification in vogue at the time certainly saw Semitic people as “not[Nordic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race)” - so while Jews are White in the simplest “Black-Brown-Yellow” race model, they are still[a different race](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) in the larger race model favoured at the time. But Hutus \*didn’t \*see the Tutsis as not Black - they saw them as “Not Hutu”, a much finer distinction. > [@](#): > > White on white violence was no new thing in Europe. No, it wasn’t. But \*every \*ingroup-outgroup conflict isn’t a racist one, and it confuses the issue to think of the Rwandan genocide as primarily a racist one. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/30 "2013-12-14T17:21:54Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Does several hundred thousand dead ‘rag heads’ weigh? Perhaps you could better explain what you’re trying to say because I have no idea what you’re arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/31 "2013-12-14T17:34:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Ooooh, comparative atrocities! > > I always vote Belgian Congo. Underdog choice. I root for Armenia genocide, but they keep missing the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/32 "2013-12-14T18:09:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I root for Armenia genocide, but they keep missing the playoffs. I still can’t believe Vegas won’t give odds on Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Cerealbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Cerealbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerealbox)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/33 "2013-12-15T01:30:03Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I still can’t believe Vegas won’t give odds on Afghanistan. The Iowa Electronic Market, an experimental research futures market, trades all sorts of current-events derivatives. However, after 9/11 they got into a bit of hot water for trading futures on potential terrorist attacks and war outcomes, so they don’t do that any more as far as I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/34 "2013-12-15T02:13:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any nation that wasn’t racist or the equivalent at some point in the last 400 years? OK, The Netherlands, maybe. I direct your attention to the [Dutch East Indies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies)… ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/35 "2013-12-16T04:51:20Z")
Tough call. The US has [polar bear hunting and the knockout game](http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/david-paulin/media-blackout-of-the-knockout-game/). In terms of numbers the [interracial attacks are quite stark](http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=21982): > [@](#): > > Since 1972, the U.S. Department of Justice has conducted a National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) to determine the frequency of certain crimes. One category is interracial crimes. Its most recent publication (1997), “Criminal Victimization in the U.S.,” reports on data collected in 1994. In that year, there were about 1,700,000 interracial crimes, of which 1,276,030 involved whites and blacks. In 90 percent of the cases, a white was the victim and a black was the perpetrator, while in 10 percent of the cases it was the reverse. Also, interracial rape is [very one way](http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=26368). > [@](#): > > the Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2005. (Go to the linked document, and under “Victims and Offenders” download the pdf file for 2005.) > > In Table 42, entitled “Personal crimes of violence, 2005, percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender,” we learn that there were 111,590 white victims and 36,620 black victims of rape or sexual assault in 2005. (The number of rapes is not distinguished from those of sexual assaults; it is maddening that sexual assault, an ill-defined category that covers various types of criminal acts ranging from penetration to inappropriate touching, is conflated with the more specific crime of rape.) In the 111,590 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was white, 44.5 percent of the offenders were white, and 33.6 percent of the offenders were black. In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally. > > The table does not gives statistics for Hispanic victims and offenders. But the bottom line on interracial white/black and black/white rape is clear: > > In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man. > > In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man. OTOH, I understand South Africa has seen nearly 3000 white Afrikaaner farmers murdered by blacks since 1994? [These aren’t just economically motivated killings, they appear to be driven by racial hatred](http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/arnold-ahlert/the-gruesome-reality-of-racist-south-africa/). > [@](#): > > In July of 2012, Dr. Gregory Stanton, head of the nonprofit group Genocide Watch, conducted a fact-finding mission in South Africa. He concluded that there is a coordinated campaign of genocide being conducted against white farmers, known as Boers. “The farm murders, we have become convinced, are not accidental,” Stanton contended. “It was very clear that the massacres were not common crimes,” he added — especially because of the absolute barbarity used against the victims. “We don’t know exactly who is planning them yet, but what we are calling for is an international investigation,” he added. > > The number of farm murders, or “plaasmoorde” as it is called in Afrikaans, is staggering. Over the last decade, it is estimated that at least 3000 Boers have been killed. Estimating the number of murders is necessary because the ANC has banned crime statistics from being compiled, claiming they scare off foreign investment. **Moreover, the world knows little about the savagery that accompanies those killings. Many victims, including women and infant children, are raped or tortured before they are killed. Some have boiling water poured down their throats, some are burned with hot pokers, and some are hacked to death with machetes, or disemboweled. Several others have been tied to their own cars and dragged for miles.** ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/36 "2013-12-16T05:35:52Z")
The “knockout game” is at best heavily exaggerated and, at worst, a myth. What is “polar bear hunting”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/37 "2013-12-16T08:19:18Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > OTOH, I understand South Africa has seen nearly 3000 white Afrikaaner farmers murdered by blacks since 1994? [These aren’t just economically motivated killings, they appear to be driven by racial hatred](http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/arnold-ahlert/the-gruesome-reality-of-racist-south-africa/). Yeah, an article titled “Genocide and \*\*Communism \*\*Threaten South Africa” is going to be my source for hard facts too. The '80s are very retro right now. Stanton’s downgraded SA to a 5 again, BTW. Not that he’s without his critics - remember when he was hounded out of the State Department for banging the genocide drum re: Iran/Israel? Everything looks like a genocidal nail to him. Never mind that the SA murder rate is now[much lower than it was](http://mg.co.za/article/2013-10-10-are-sa-whites-really-being-killed-like-flies) before Apartheid ended. Like that article shows, race baiters use distorted statistics and even outright made-up numbers to attempt to make their points (Hey, just noticed it’s kind of like how Rushton just outright made up his own stats too. This seems to be a pattern for you, not being able to tell good statistics from crap.) And I’ve covered the farm murders [enough times](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12123241&postcount=40) on this Board. And it was \*you \*posting bullshit then, too. How many times are you going to post the same race-baiting shit, before you see it doesn’t stick? And I’d love a cite for that “boiling water down the throat” attack. It’s not one I’ve read about. (One that comes from a journalist, not from a racist site like censorbugbear or thetruthaboutsouthafrica.) Note I’m not denying farm attacks happen, and that often there’s brutality involved (people tortured to reveal where their valuable are, for instance, or killed to remove any witnesses) - I’m denying it’s primarily or majorly racially _motivated_. Simple fact is - Whites own all the farms. If people are going to get attacked on farms, it’s going to be Whites. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136/38 "2013-12-16T08:23:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What is “polar bear hunting”? It’s just [another name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_(violent_game))for the same thing [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-country-is-more-cruelly-racist-us-or-sa/676136.md?page=1)