Have faith in your convictions. I voted Libertarian with a clear consious. 
-XT
When you’re weighing the “best possible otucome”, you do what you have to do. Thankfully, it didn’t really seem to matter who I voted for, especially being in Ohio. 
Who is “they?” Isn’t this whole “us” and “they” thing a little bit tribalistic? Is it impossible for “them” to be right about something? Is it impossible for “us” to be wrong?
Our citizens are among the stupidest on earth. Oh well…that’s democracy.
My point was that talking about “liberal” American politicians is like talking about atheists in a Baptist church. There aren’t any. There are conservatives and there are moderate conservatives. You can’t just lop off the spectrum as it stands in and pretend that there are any meaningful extremes in it. We have probably the most narrow political spectrum of any major democracy. Trying to figure out which Americans are the most “liberal” is like trying to figure out who’s the skinniest woman at the fat farm. Sure you can contrive a relative standard but who are you trying to kid?
Well, that explains why Democrats are so eager to update an antequated and inadequate pension program enacted more than 60 years ago.
:rolleyes:
I thought this discussion was about the “liberals” in the Democratic Party, to which I have found none currently. And I stand by that.
Since I’m new, I’m very easily swayed by hijacks, please don’t tempt me to help ruin this thread.
They are the Europeans of course, who I presume you were refering to when you said “I think it would actually be difficult to find more than a handful of real liberals in the Democrat party. What passes for “left” in the US is still right of center for the rest of the world.”
Is it tribalistic? Not at all…last time I checked the new world government hadn’t formed yet and we were still a separate and soveriegn nation. Perhaps I’m wrong about that in which case you have a point of sorts.
Is it impossible for us to be wrong? Not at all. However, the converse is certainly true as well…its definitely possible for THEM to be wrong as well. As to OUR political spectrum, no…its not really possible for us to be ‘wrong’ about that, because thats how it falls out for us as a whole. Its not really possible for ‘them’ to be wrong either, as the same is true. Its possible (in fact probable) that we (and ‘they’) will change our minds and that our political spectrum will modify itself over time to conform to new outlooks and changing attitudes of our citizens…but how ever it changes it will be ‘right’…for us.
:dubious: Do you have a cite for this incredible steaming pile of horseshit…or did you pull it out of the same orifice as the horse?
Are you making the incredible claim that there is no left wing in our political spectrum?? Because if you are…well, I don’t really even know what to say to such an incredibly stupid statement. Just because our left wing might be to the right of YOU doesn’t mean that its not there…nor that its not left of our own political center. Again, its like a hard core right wing Nazi looking back and saying that there is no right wing in the country…only liberals and moderate liberals. Basically its fringe lunacy.
Cite that we have the most narrow political spectrum of any major democracy? Not that it really matters mind you…its what WE want. However, I’d like to see some facts from some of the things you are pulling out of your nether quarters DtC because it smells like bullshit to me…well, some kind of fecal matter anyway.
As to the last there…our standards are our standards. Comparing them to someone elses standards is a meaningless excersize…self mental mastrabation and grass is greener longings. Because you are unhappy with how our political system falls out you want to put it down, or call your fellow citizens stupid, ignorant, blah blah blah…but fortunately YOUR opinion has to go up against all your fellow citizens and is found wanting (praise the gods!). As I said before, and I mean this in the softest way possible…if you really can’t stomach what the majority of your fellow citizens want, and you really think the grass is greener elsewhere, then by all means go graze in pastures more suited to your own outlook. You will be much happier I’m sure in the utopia thats across the big pond…I have no doubts.
-XT
[QUOTE=PinkMarabou]
:rolleyes:
I thought this discussion was about the “liberals” in the Democratic Party, to which I have found none currently. And I stand by that.
Since I’m new, I’m very easily swayed by hijacks, please don’t tempt me to help ruin this thread. ;)[/QUOTE
So your answer to the OPs question is “all of them”?
I said:
To which you replied:
Am I being whooshed? Or am I just this dumb? :dubious:
You stated that you found no liberals in the Democratic Party. So the answer to the question “Which Dems are not liberals?” would be “All of them”.
Ooops, my bad. I was thinking he meant that I thought all of them were liberals. To which I don’t.
I am that dumb obviously! :smack:
Thats a…facinating…statement. So, there are no liberals in the Democratic party at all ehe? Even those Democrats who self identify as liberals are deluded? I suppose there are no conservatives in the Republican party either? Are there any liberals in the Republican party by chance? There should be, since all the Democrats are conservatives (or presumably a centrist or two thrown in). Or are liberals extinct in America? Merely extinct from the Democratic Party? THAT would be news to me. Perhaps they are merely endangered? Are they on the endangered species list per chance?
Sorry if I’m not taking your assertion too seriously PM and making fun of you a bit. Its how I deal with stuff this off the wall unfortunately.
-XT
No problem. 
My own personal views on what makes a “liberal” just does not make itself known in today’s Democratic Party. That is my own view.
But I fall more in line with the Green party, so my idea of “liberal” is (which has been pointed out here) far more to the left than what most Americans consider “liberal” today.
I’m not sure of the broadness of our political spectrum, but the answer does matter…in this debate, at least.
After all, if we define “liberal” based on the current American political spectrum, any person who claims there are few moderates in the Democratic party is Grade A wacky.
The following statements are inconsistent to hold simultaneously:
- “Left-wing” is defined by the current american political spectrum.
- All Democratic office holders are left-wing.
- The American people are intelligent.
After all, if Democratic candidates were so flamingly liberal, they wouldn’t hold nearly half the high offices in the nation. Assuming of course, assumption #1 and #3.
The only argument that I can think of to explain this parliamentary anomaly would be that the American people are stupid and vote for Democrats despite the candidate’s beliefs. And conservatives accuse liberals of being condescending, so I don’t think they want to go there.
Perhaps, on the other hand, conservatives accuse the Democrats of being liberal relative to the global political spectrum, in which case I’d agree that they were somewhat socially liberal (if you throw in democracies in developing economies,) but fiscally moderate or even conservative relative to nearly all other democratic nations. And socially moderate or conservative if you compare just to Europe.
Finally, perhaps conservatives accuse the Democrats of being liberal relative to some absolute moral standard. In that case, it is as stunning an indictment of American’s morals as the previous argument was of their intelligence, since we elect 'em anyway. I don’t think they want to go there either.
If I may return to the OP for a moment, I nominate: Ralph Hall, D-TX.
When the “Solid South” turned Republican, someone forgot to tell Ralph.
What we are saying is that the entirety of the US political electorate is right of center in international terms. What passes for “liberal” is in fact moderate at best. Democrats who call themselves “liberal” (and they are few to non-existent anymore) do so only within the extremely narrow spectrum of American politics.
They voted for Bush, didn’t they? 70% of them think that Iraq bombed the World Trdae Center. more than 40% of them think we should teach creationism instead of evolution. Not along with evolution, instead of evolution. No other major democracy on earth (and that includes Canada, Israel and Australia, btw, not just Europe) actually has to have a debate about teaching evolution. An alarming majority of Americans think that every word of the Bible is literally true. That spells s-t-u-p-i-d, my friend. We are a backwards, retarded people, make no mistake.
I’m saying that there’s no left wing in the electorate, i.e the Dems and the Pubs. There are left wingers in the public spectrum (Nader, Chompsky) but they don’t get elected to anything. The fact that you think it’s “incredible” to state that the Democrat party is not “left wing” only betrays your own lack of knowledge of international politics. The Democrat party voted for the war. They are for the death penalty. They are against gay marriage, they are pro-corporate, they are against socialized health care or education. You seem to thing a quibble about how much to cut taxes for the rich or just how much to defang environmental restrictions represent some sort of meaningful political division. They don’t.
Not just right of me, right of CENTER by any objective measure.
Godwin!
I win.
No, it’s just a reminder that we have a distorted view about what truly repesents liberal ideology.
Who said I was unhappy with the system? I’m fine with it. Wouldn’t change a thing.
America, love it or leave it? Is that the best you can do?
Thank you for simplifying what I tried repeatedly to say to no avail.
Og-forbid the rest of the world be right in determining what “liberal” is, curse them for not being as smart as us! We’re Americans - everyone else is wrong! Don’t you know that??
I guess in un-American fashion, you and I think globally. As you already know so well, that doesn’t happen much in our country.
Thank you again.
Yeah, it’s a good thing we have the rest of the world to invent things like PCs, Operating Systems, and the internet so that we can debate on-line how stupid Americans are.
Except the one measure you seem to be damned intent on ignoring: The political spectrum here in America.
Oh, I got what you were saying as far as our spectrum compared to others DtC…I’m slow sometimes but not that slow. However, again, what difference does it make how our system compares to another when we are talking about our own internal politics. What passes for a ‘liberal’ in OUR system is a ‘liberal’. A ‘moderate’ is a ‘moderate’ in our system. And a ‘conservative’ is a ‘conservative’. A is A. Democrats who call themselves ‘liberal’ or who hold what is commonly considered (in the US of course) to be ‘liberal’ philosophies are of course ‘liberals’…but American political standards. What difference does it make what some European thinks of that…or some sheepherder in Outer Mongolia for that matter. They don’t live here, they have no direct input into our system, and they have their own worldview and philosophy based on their own experiences from where they live and grew up. Just like its meaningless to put US lables on political structures in Britian or France, its equally meaningless to put theirs on ours.
Its obvious you aren’t getting this so why don’t we drop this hijack and get back to the OP? Or, if you insist we can continue to beat this dead horse until its a fine grey paste…up to you.
Without getting into the exact percentages of folks in Europe (your utopia) who believe quite sincerely that it was really the US government that bombed the WTC and the Pentagon on 9/11 (here’s a hint…its quite a number of them), I don’t see how you are arriving at the conclusions you are arriving at. The fact that some percentage of people incorrectly understand an issue doesn’t make them stupid…it makes them uninformed. Those are two very different proposition…even if you are French.
To be brief, an alarming number of humans believe all manner of incorrect things…be they American or European or from Outer Mongolia. All I can say to you is you need to get out in the world more if you think that believing incorrect or even stupid things is an American phenomina.
I never stated that the Democratic party was left wing…only that their planks are left wing compared to the US political spectrum. Individual Democrats vary as much as individual Republicans do, and run the gammet of our political spectrum…including left wing/liberals. To say otherwise is to willfully ignore plain facts…or to arrogantly hold up your own political spectrum over that of the country.
As to your statement that the Democratic party is for the death penalty, against gay marriage, are pro-corporate and against socialized healh care or education I again need to ask you for a cite on the Democrats offical position indicating you are correct…because again I think you are making this stuff up as you go along. Perhaps INDIVIDUAL Democrats are for or against the things you listed…but the party? I’m skeptical. Fight my ignorance and bring cites, not YOUR opinion on what the Democratic party is for or against.
Er…you are simply wrong. By the OBJECTIVE measurement of our own system the center is the center, the left is the left and the right is the right. A is A (god I love throwing that out :)). The fact that you don’t see it that way, and Europe doesn’t see it that way, doesn’t make it true…it just means your own measurements are skewed in comparison to the US norm.
ROFLMAO! Ok bro…you win.
How can we…when its OUR system, OUR standards, and OUR spectrum? If anyone has a distorted view with reguards to US norm its you DtC.
Honestly…you don’t seem very happy in these political threads. You seem full of rage and unhappyness with the US system because its not doing what you want. If you are fine with the system and wouldn’t change a thing then you are in the same boat I’m in…after all, MY Presidential pick didn’t get elected either, and I’m forced to muddle through 4 more years of Bush as well as you are. You might THINK that makes me happy…but you would be incorrect.
Well, my statement was half tongue in cheek (as you probably guessed). However, what I was really saying wasn’t ‘America, love it or leave it’ but ‘If you think you’d be happier in another place that more closely fits your world view then you should seriously consider making yourself happy and going there’. Those are two different things. Of course, you claim to BE happy and wouldn’t change a thing about our current system so its a moot point, no?
-XT