# Which do you consider to be the main "adversary nation?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370 "2020-09-11T20:47:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/101 "2021-11-22T13:03:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I have never felt you were lying about your situation or origin and feel like you have been critical of the things you pointed out. If I came across differently in these discussions then it wasn’t meant to be that way. I wasn’t accusing you of this, I was just trying to head this off. I have been openly accused of being a commie plant or whatever, based purely on my observations of the covid crisis (despite these observations happening to be the same as international epidemiologists working in the region and the wider scientific community), and despite the fact that I frequently condemn China on many issues. > [@XT](#): > > And that’s not where I am. I feel like there has been a huge whitewash of China by our own press, media, and political system […] That is such a bizarre position to take though. Just Google “CNN China” for example, and you find multiple negative articles published in just the last 24 hours. Let alone FOX which parrots GOP rhetoric on things like the Wuhan Lab. Meanwhile, can you show even one example of whitewashing, because I can’t see any. In fact, the only English-language site that I am aware of that ever covers China with nuance is the Economist, and even they often fall into “speculations” about China that subsequently turn out to be false, but you’d never know because they will never publish an update that admits error. And I’m not even really asking for positive stories or anything – that’s not how the news works in most places in general – just not depicting them as cartoon villain and actually trying to educate the viewers a bit more. In terms of China as a threat we could talk about infrastructure and education say, but that’s a tougher story to sell than just China waiting for their chance to invade or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/102 "2021-11-22T20:28:47Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Just Google “CNN China” for example, and you find multiple negative articles published in just the last 24 hours. Let alone FOX which parrots GOP rhetoric on things like the Wuhan Lab. CNN China gets me: - ### [Xi Jinping is rewriting history. But it’s the future he wants to leave his mark on](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/08/china/sixth-plenum-preview-mic-intl-hnk/index.html) - ### [How a warning about food supply sparked panic buying in China](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/economy/china-food-security-mic-intl-hnk/index.html) - ### [Chinese tennis star accuses former top Communist Party leader of sexual assault, triggering blanket censorship](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/china/china-metoo-peng-shuai-zhang-gaoli-intl-hnk/index.html) - ### [10 moments that shaped China’s Communist Party](https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2021/07/asia/ccp100-intl-hnk-dst/) - ### [Meanwhile in China: Sign up for CNN’s new newsletter](https://edition.cnn.com/specials/meanwhile-in-china) Digging in, all of these stories have a spin on them, and one that toes the line wrt pissing off the CCP. Going on CNN and typing, oh, say ‘organ harvesting’ nets a bunch of articles about stem cell research and the like. There are a few articles on, say, Uyghurs, but they are mostly about peripheral issues, not hard-hitting investigations and reporting about what is going on. I’m not sure really what you are looking at me to provide here. Are there some stories about what is going on in China? Yes. Are some of them unflattering to the CCP? Yes. But many are watered down or whitewashed. And the reasons are pretty clear…if they don’t do this then they can (and in some cases some have been) banned in China, up to losing any access to even send reporters to China. Many don’t want to risk that and in fact, don’t risk it. As for the Economist, I don’t know if it’s still the case, but they were banned in China in just this way. I don’t follow them, so don’t know whether your assertion that they regularly criticize China is valid or not, or whether their stories are later disproved, but if they are still banned in China it’s probably why they feel they don’t have anything to lose by criticizing the CCP. I’m unsure how one could report on some of the things that the CCP regularly does and NOT come off portraying them as a 'cartoon villain. That’s kind of the problem…the stuff they do is so over the top you do expect them to be twirling their thin mustaches and saying muahahahahaha! while counting their piles of money. I don’t know how you do nuance with genocide, mass internment, organ harvesting…and of a quasi-religious group that has been oppressed and heavily suppressed for decades now..and all the rest. The laundry list of what they do is incredible…yet, you hardly hear about this stuff. But evil as they obviously are, this has nothing to do with why they are an adversary nation, at least IMHO, and it’s straying from the OP. The evil they do internally, while I think we should be putting more of a spotlight on it, isn’t why China is such a threat…it’s more an underscore why they are evil bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/103 "2021-11-23T23:03:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > CNN China gets me: CNN publish multiple stories on China each day, and the newest of the articles in your list is 2 weeks old. So you went cherry-picking. …which is fine, I did challenge you to find any example of whitewashing. I just want it to be clear for people who are joining this discussion that “CNN China gets me” is a little misleading. These are not a slice of what one would see at any particular time, and at least a couple are just reference info that would never have got anywhere near the main page anyway. Anyway, looking at your list, no I don’t see any particular whitewashing there. For example “10 moments that shaped China’s Communist Party” might sound a positive headline, but the content is of course about the Tiananmen square massacre, the disastrous great leap forward etc etc. “Xi Jinping is rewriting history…” is a fairly dispassionate description of Xi’s powergrab. I guess the author could have emphasized _this is a bad thing_, but I don’t see that the article particularly needed that. But it’s hardly glowing either. So no, I’m not seeing any sucking up in this list. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/104 "2021-11-29T02:42:01Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > CNN publish multiple stories on China each day, and the newest of the articles in your list is 2 weeks old. So you went cherry-picking. I’m kind of done with this discussion, but this made me laugh out loud. I did…EXACTLY…what you said. You can go check that yourself up thread. Doing that…you then claim cherry-picking. On a silly ass ‘cite’ request for me to ‘prove’ bias. As my last point, I’m not exactly surprised you don’t see the bias. I’m not surprised you are arguing this ridiculous point either. I’ll leave it there unless someone has something interesting to discuss in this thread going forward. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/105 "2021-11-29T02:46:20Z")
Indy who now votes Dem but was Rep. Russia is the bigger adversary. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/106 "2021-11-29T03:30:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Russia is the bigger adversary. Right this minute, maybe. But compare what happened when Russia took Crimea vs. what would happen if China took Taiwan. Even if the U.S. didn’t follow through on Biden’s walked-back pledges to defend Taiwan, the U.S. would draw some unambiguous new line that Xi can’t cross. This would put us on a road to major war I don’t see with Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/107 "2021-11-29T08:48:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Doing that…you then claim cherry-picking I challenged you to find an example of CNN whitewashing china (which was your claim), and for that, cherry picking is of course fine, [which is exactly what I said](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/103). It’s cherry picking and then listing the articles as “CNN China gets me…” that is a problem, as it might leave someone with the impression that you did the same thing as me and just Google the main headlines on a typical day. > [@XT](#): > > As my last point, I’m not exactly surprised you don’t see the bias. Nor am I. You failed to even find one example of whitewashing, vs me being able to show that _every day_ multiple negative articles are published about china. Instead of being “done”, you should try challenging your beliefs in the light of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/108 "2021-11-29T08:49:00Z")
@PhillyGuy please be careful not to misattribute quotes. I have never claimed that Russia is a bigger adversary than china. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/109 "2021-11-29T21:52:32Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The lion’s share of the actual people who live in a given nation spend very little time focusing on international relations. Most of the time, yes. But shortly before war, the focus shifts. As for China, the government has gained a lot of citizen trust, and pride, from the tremendous poverty reduction. And this trust is one reason why a large portion of the population (no polls, AFAIK, to put a number on this) is seriously convinced that Taiwan needs to be part of China, both de jury and de facto. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/110 "2021-11-29T22:04:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > @PhillyGuy please be careful not to misattribute quotes. I have never claimed that Russia is a bigger adversary than china. Apologies! And I basically agree with this, except I might substitute dangerous for the word silly: > [@Mijin](#): > > I think the whole thing of “adversary nation” is silly and leads to oversimplistic views of geopolitics Now, while treating countries, we are at peace with, as adversaries, can lead to war, so can appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370/111 "2021-11-30T20:00:58Z")
For those interested, the DoD has just published it’s annual report on “[Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China](https://media.defense.gov/2021/Nov/03/2002885874/-1/-1/0/2021-CMPR-FINAL.PDF)” (5 MB pdf). Taiwan is only one of many strategic issues (it gets covered starting on page 98). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-do-you-consider-to-be-the-main-adversary-nation/920370.md?page=5)