# Which European monarchy is the most likely to return? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108 "2012-05-16T15:52:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/41 "2012-05-18T18:46:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Look at [this smug little prick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Christophe_Napol%C3%A9on)’s face. LOOK AT IT ! That’s royalty shining through and no mistake, guv’. _Langue de boeuf! Mais oui!_ ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/42 "2012-05-18T19:05:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The [Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth) was an **elective** monarchy, so if the Poles and/or the Lithuanians ever wanted to “restore” it (reunification would be a different question), I guess they could choose anybody they like, and it need not be Pole nor a Lithuanian (several Kings of Poland & Grand Dukes of Lithuania were foreign). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or. then again, maybe the [Sobieskis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobieski_Stuarts) could rule Scotland . . . For your [consideration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leelee_Sobieski)… ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/43 "2012-05-19T18:39:12Z")
An interesting (if rather unlikely) possibility is if the EU becomes the Second Holy Roman Empire with a federal structure with a Hapsburg ruler (ironically HRE II is probably going to be more centralized than HRE ever was). I think though the best possibility for monarchial restoration lies outside Europe-Libya for example has lots of people nostalgic for the monarchy. In addition Middle Eastern monarchies tend to be more stable and milder (except for Saudi Arabia) than their republican counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/44 "2012-05-19T18:50:45Z")
The present King of France is bald. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/45 "2012-05-19T20:01:10Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > For your [consideration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leelee_Sobieski)… [stamps feet and howls] All Scots, hail! God save Queen Leelee! After all, the Scottish throne is vacant, ever since Idi Amin passed away. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/46 "2012-05-19T20:04:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > An interesting (if rather unlikely) possibility is if the EU becomes the Second Holy Roman Empire with a federal structure with a Hapsburg ruler (ironically HRE II is probably going to be more centralized than HRE ever was). Of course, you’d have to sell all the Protestant countries on the idea . . . to them, the very notion of the HRE might evoke unpleasant cultural memories. And I’m sure [Karl von Habsburg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg) is Catholic – is QEII to swear fealty to a **papist?!** ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/47 "2012-05-21T01:48:23Z")
> [@DearestDane](#): > > **Åland Islands** joining **Sweden**.:dubious: Why would they leave Finland? They are way too small to survive without a big country looking after them, unless they have some hidden oil they can pump out for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/48 "2012-05-21T01:55:18Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Why would they leave Finland? > > They are way too small to survive without a big country looking after them, unless they have some hidden oil they can pump out for a few years. Finland [almost had a monarchy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_(1918)) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/49 "2012-05-21T02:10:33Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Why would they leave Finland? > > They are way too small to survive without a big country looking after them, unless they have some hidden oil they can pump out for a few years. He says they’d join Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/50 "2012-05-21T02:15:09Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He says they’d join Sweden. [The people of the Aland Islands are all Swedish-speakers,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands) so I guess they belong there. But nobody’s gonna fight a war over it. (But you could make an entertaining **story** out of the idea – see “The Littlest Jackal,” by Bruce Sterling.) ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/51 "2012-05-21T15:02:07Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > I think the SNP’s plan for an independent Scotland includes retaining the current monarch, so independence shouldn’t give anyone else hope. Correct. But if it happened then the Scottish Crown would reappear and the monarch would be styled, “Elizabeth, Queen of Scots” (not the “II” note as the first predated the Union. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/52 "2012-05-21T15:17:22Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > Correct. But if it happened then the Scottish Crown would reappear and the monarch would be styled, “Elizabeth, Queen of Scots” (not the “II” note as the first predated the Union. That’s not what I’ve seen stated as the plan for an independent Scotland. It’s not like she’s Elizabeth 1 of Australia and other countries that were only brought into the Empire (and then the Commonwealth) after Liz 1’s reign. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/53 "2012-05-21T16:03:08Z")
That would be because the crown of Australia post dates QE II being queen of everything. Scotland is one of the few, if not the only, nations of which she is sovereign whose crown was separate and predates her lines assumption of the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/54 "2012-05-21T17:01:42Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > That would be because the crown of Australia post dates QE II being queen of everything. The crown of Australia dates to the Federation of the former British colonies into the current nation of Australia in 1901. Which was long before there was a QE2. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/55 "2012-05-21T17:16:02Z")
My second sentence, which you choose not to quote, expresses my meaning better. Pretty much everything that the monarch is currently monarch of, is younger than the union of the crowns and the Act of Union, Australia included. If Australia had monarchs other than the current royal line then they might get into the numbering thing but they didn’t. Scotland did. To call herself QE II of Scotland would suggest that there was a QE I - no such confusion is possible for the ex-colonies. I am sure, given the sensitive political nature of any post-Scottish independence settlement, that Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, would be the most logical and likely title to take. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/56 "2012-05-21T20:44:27Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > That would be because the crown of Australia post dates QE II being queen of everything. > > Scotland is one of the few, if not the only, nations of which she is sovereign whose crown was separate and predates her lines assumption of the throne. Is Wales another? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/57 "2012-05-21T21:59:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is Wales another? I’ll let the experts tackle this question. I’ll just point out another genealogical curiosity. [Llywelyn Fawr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great) was one of the last great Princes of Wales; some of his descendants also ruled parts of Wales but, according to at least one source, these lines went extinct so the legitimate inheritance of Llywelyn Fawr might fall to the heirs of his daughter, Gwladus the Dark. > [@septimus](#): > > It is interesting, though logical, how often heirships unite. King James VI and I was the legitimate heir of both Robert the Bruce of Scots and, despite usurpations along the way, William the Conqueror. > > As mentioned in another recent thread, Malcolm III of Scots married the legitimate heiress of Alfred the Great though,… Gwladus the Dark had no children by her first husband, but she did by her 2nd husband, Ralph Mortimer Lord of Wigmore, and the heirs of Wigmore were also Gwladus’s heirs. Her great-grandson Roger Mortimer was the infamous 1st Earl of March alleged to have murdered King Edward II most gruesomely. Roger’s great-grandson, in turn, was the Edward Mortimer who married Phillipe of Clarence, the legitimate Heiress of England. Finally, _their_ great-grandson was Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York, from whom all subsequent Kings of England (except Henry VII) claim descent. So, at least in one theory, the genealogical heirships of England and Wales became united through a series of marriages. ETA: But such lines are useful only in Trivia games, and have no legal relevance. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/58 "2012-05-21T22:40:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is Wales another? I think not. There was never a Kingdom of Wales - petty princes and then the first in line Price of Wales (just honorary). I was thinking of the Channel Isles (William’s before he was Conquerer) and probably Ireland (my ancient Irish history is a bit hit and miss). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/59 "2012-05-21T22:53:55Z")
Seeing the Serbian family come back would be interesting. [Crown Prince Alexander](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander,_Crown_Prince_of_Yugoslavia) is pretty popular over there. Doesn’t mean anything, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/60 "2012-05-22T00:07:14Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > I think not. There was never a Kingdom of Wales - petty princes and then the first in line Price of Wales (just honorary). No, there was a Principality of Wales, kindasorta – dunno if that name ever was applied to it – but, it was once independent and more-or-less-at-times united, and [the title of “Prince of Wales” is older than its application to England’s/Britain’s heir.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_wales#History) But, Wales was semi-incorporated into England long before the Act of Union of 1707, which is why there are no “Welsh bits” in the Union Jack or the Royal Arms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108.md?page=4)