# Which European monarchy is the most likely to return? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108 "2012-05-16T15:52:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/61 "2012-05-22T00:17:59Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > I was thinking of the Channel Isles (William’s before he was Conquerer) and probably Ireland (my ancient Irish history is a bit hit and miss). The [Channel Islands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Islands) are remnants of the [Duchy of Normandy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_normandy), which does kindasorta predate the [Kingdom of England](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_england) (Normandy founded 911, England united 927, but England had predecessor kingdoms). Independent Ireland was a kingdom, but not much of one . . . Often there was no [High King](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) at all, and nobody seemed to notice (that’s how the English were able to take over, they could always play off one independent local prince against another) . . . The [“Kingdom of Ireland”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Ireland) generally refers to the English/British-dominated state that existed from 1542 to 1800. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/62 "2012-05-22T01:08:08Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > My second sentence, which you choose not to quote, expresses my meaning better. > > Pretty much everything that the monarch is currently monarch of, is younger than the union of the crowns and the Act of Union, Australia included. If Australia had monarchs other than the current royal line then they might get into the numbering thing but they didn’t. > > Scotland did. To call herself QE II of Scotland would suggest that there was a QE I - no such confusion is possible for the ex-colonies. I am sure, given the sensitive political nature of any post-Scottish independence settlement, that Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, would be the most logical and likely title to take. She is styled QEII in Scotland, even though Scotland never had an earlier Queen Elizabeth. It turns out that monarchs have some leeway in how they are styled. If you visit The Honours, you will see QEII. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/63 "2012-05-22T04:43:49Z")
The [Albanian monarchy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Albania) needs restoration – just so we can kneel before Zog! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/64 "2012-05-22T08:02:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > An interesting (if rather unlikely) possibility is if the EU becomes the Second Holy Roman Empire with a federal structure with a Hapsburg ruler (ironically HRE II is probably going to be more centralized than HRE ever was). Deciding exactly which particular Habsburg line would get its crotchspawn on the European throne would be a hoot though. Aren’t like 80% of European royal families part Habsburgs by now ? Talk about herding cats. PS: count me out at least, last time we had that particular kerfluffle it lasted a Thirty Years 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/65 "2012-05-22T12:43:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Deciding exactly which particular Habsburg line would get its crotchspawn on the European throne would be a hoot though. Aren’t like 80% of European royal families part Habsburgs by now ? Talk about herding cats. Rules for succession are generally clearcut. People in line to be Head of the House of Hapsburg definitely keep track of details like birth order. AFAIK, there is no doubt that [the present Sovereign of the Order of the Golden Fleece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg) would be Heir to Austria (were Austria to accept that it had an “Heir” :smack: ). OTOH, Austria follows the German practice that noble titles follow agnatic lines, so the present House of Hapsburg may be regarded as a genealogical fiction! The “real” House of Hapsburg went extinct (due in part to the bad effects of inbreeding) and [the last Hapsburg Empress](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Austria) was able to pass her surname and possessions to her husband and children because of [the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_1713), which affirmed “semi-Salic” inheritance (inheritance by a daughter when there are no living male agnates of a dynasty’s founder) for the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/66 "2012-05-22T12:58:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Rules for succession are generally clearcut. People in line to be Head of the House of Hapsburg definitely keep track of details like birth order. AFAIK, there is no doubt that [the present Sovereign of the Order of the Golden Fleece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Habsburg) would be Heir to Austria (were Austria to accept that it had an “Heir” :smack: ). > > OTOH, Austria follows the German practice that noble titles follow agnatic lines, so the present House of Hapsburg may be regarded as a genealogical fiction! The “real” House of Hapsburg went extinct (due in part to the bad effects of inbreeding) and [the last Hapsburg Empress](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_of_Austria) was able to pass her surname and possessions to her husband and children because of [the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_1713), which affirmed “semi-Salic” inheritance (inheritance by a daughter when there are no living male agnates of a dynasty’s founder) for the Empire. Right, but if we posit that this Sanction is valid and applicable, wouldn’t other branches of the family get a retroactive claim because, way back when, the title was passed from Father King to Son King to Grandson King even though Son King still had a living sister, for example ? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/67 "2012-05-22T15:38:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Right, but if we posit that this Sanction is valid and applicable, wouldn’t other branches of the family get a retroactive claim because, way back when, the title was passed from Father King to Son King to Grandson King even though Son King still had a living sister, for example ? Don’t forget that semi-Salic inheritance allows inheritance of or through a female only when there are _ **zero** _ male agnatic descendants of the dynasty founder. I’ve previously mentioned on SDMB the amazing case of [King Willem III of the Netherlands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_the_Netherlands), whose daughter inherited Netherlands in 1890. (Netherlands was a new Kingdom and there were no legitimate male agnatic descendants of Willem I, the dynasty founder.) But Luxemburg was an ancient heirloom of the House of Nassau, and had to be split off from Netherlands and given to a male member of the House. Under the rules, the closest cousin (using only pure-male links) of Willem III inherited Luxemburg but the common ancestor of Willem III and Adolphe (the new Grand Duke) was [Henry II the Rich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II_of_Nassau), deceased more than _six_ centuries earlier in 1251. (Ironically, the House of Nassau went completely extinct after another generation, so a woman inherited and the Monarch of Luxemburg now bears, like so many Western European nobles, the Bourbon Y-chromosome.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/68 "2012-05-23T04:23:27Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I think he was PM of Bulgaria, not President. Yeah well, the actual title is in Bulgarian… my point stands, he was _elected_ to “dude in charge”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108/69 "2012-05-23T04:32:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Don’t forget that semi-Salic inheritance allows inheritance of or through a female only when there are _ **zero** _ male agnatic descendants of the dynasty founder. > > I’ve previously mentioned on SDMB the amazing case of [King Willem III of the Netherlands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_the_Netherlands), whose daughter inherited Netherlands in 1890. (Netherlands was a new Kingdom and there were no legitimate male agnatic descendants of Willem I, the dynasty founder.) But then the House of Orange [went on to rule the Solar System!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Star)🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-european-monarchy-is-the-most-likely-to-return/622108.md?page=3)